The grim reality of yet another All-Ireland final loss is now sinking in with Mayo supporters, following the county’s defeat to Tyrone in last Saturday’s Sam Maguire decider. As the number of finals lost continues to mount so too does the sense of frustration about Mayo’s repeated inability to take that last, decisive step to glory.
In this episode of the Mayo News football podcast we take another look back on Mayo’s latest All-Ireland final defeat and what it means for the county. Rob Murphy hosts the show and he’s joined by Edwin McGreal of the Mayo News and by John Gunnigan of the Mayo GAA Blog.
The lads look back on the game itself and what went wrong for James Horan’s team on the day. They then discuss wider issues in relation to Mayo’s regular appearance at this stage of the Championship and the continual disappointment that has awaited them in each final they’ve contested since 1989. The way supporters have reacted to this latest loss is discussed and we also hear from Malachy Clerkin of the Irish Times, with whom Edwin spoke after the big match at Croke Park.
This episode of the Mayo News football podcast is now online and is available to listen to on iTunes, SoundCloud, Podomatic and Spotify. You can also listen to it directly on the Mayo News website as well as here on the blog using the SoundCloud player below or the one on the panel on the right.
The Mayo News football podcast has its own Twitter presence, @MayoPodcast, so if you’re a Twitter user you should follow us there to make sure you get the latest podcast-related updates, including new episodes.
You can also subscribe to the podcast on your platform of choice and can do that here.
The Mayo News football podcast is produced and edited by Ger Duffy Media. The show is sponsored by Ceramic City and Swinford Motors, two fine Mayo businesses with whom we’re proud to be associated this year.
191 thoughts on “All-Ireland final fallout – Mayo News football podcast 2021 E29”
Thanks Willie Joe for all the content here this week. The temptation must have been to pack it all in for a few weeks. I have avoided the national media analysis and the B.S. that comes with much of it all week. The blog here has been some form of therapy after what has been without question the toughest post final week of them all.
There is a lot of merit in the physcological discussion and the mental readiness on the day. There were a lot of mistakes when better options were sometimes available in particular for the goal chances. Anything less than 100% alertness, clinical awareness will result in mistakes (includes the ‘he was unlucky’ category of mistake also). This can be addressed and there are proper proven methods out there to do so.
I am positive for next year if the above is fixed and a proper lessons learned is done (tactics, opposition analysis, pick a team that suits the team your playing etc.). I believe this years top 4 will be next years also, with possibly Donegal there also. I don’t see any of those creating a big gap on any of the others for example I can see Dublin regressing with a few more retirements and their bench hasn’t been as strong. Kerry will also have a few retirements and again don’t seem to have an improving or strong bench. There maybe improvement in Tyrone but back to back I cant see it for them. Then for us the young lads are a year older with more experience, we could/should have 3-4 big players back, we have plenty of potential on the extended panel with an overall young profile.
On Horan I’ll keep faith he can fix the above but when he makes next years final (trying to stay positive with that one), there needs to be as some have said and I agree with a war room to plan and strategise with a predetermined group and this needs to be for the management to cover everything conceivable that needs to be covered so that players and tactics are 110% ready on the day. The result doesn’t have to be a complex plan e.g. Tyrone executed the same as they did against Kerry with small tweaks and even the subs came on at the same time !
Great chat. Thanks to all concerned. Best way to finish this miserable week. Time now to draw breath.
If James had to replace some of his backroom who would be a good person to bring in? Do we need to look at succession planning for when James moves on.
Saw this and thought of the players that have come in for criticism after the final. Roll on 2022, I’m right behind them.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong
man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better.
The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is
marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who
comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and
shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows
great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy
cause; who at the best knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement,
and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that
his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know
victory nor defeat. -Theodore Roosevelt
Anyone read Connaught Telegraph online this afternoon?? Worrying stuff. Cannot say I am that suprised though.
Is there anything that n the article I saw in the Sun today about Ciarán McDonald leaving ng the back room team?
@Thateamwontstart..In the last few years, Mickey Harte had plenty of critics.. The Tyrone County board were eventually convinced someone else could do better.. To get the balance right, between critical thinking/positive feedback/or negative feedback and not put your head in the sand. This particular Mayo supporter, who deep down couldn’t care less who manages Mayo who plays for Mayo, so long as best possible players are playing, the best possible decisions are made on the sideline and also in preparation for the games… I don’t care if a team of Aliens came from outer space and inhabited that Island in Clew Bay that John Lennon used to own, were good enough and managed well to win the All Ireland.. it would do me,it’s nothing personal against anyone… I have followed Mayo down every highway and byway in Ireland.. For me too much was wrong on Saturday to be ignored, It’s easy to label someone who calls out the evidence of their own eyes, and quote Theodore Roosevelt (what was so wonderful about him anyhow?) as a critic.. but surely it’s better than putting your head in the sand and ignoring several elephants in the room,!
For God’s sake keep Ciaran McDonald on board bring on Andy Moran with him.
I thought this podcast was excellent as they analysed/ asked the pertinent questions re last Sat debacle! It was fair and a frank analysis. In particular, it was mentioned by your good self WJ that this is the 4th final that we lost under the present manager and
why our Mayo team were not prepared properly for Tyrone! I
t was agreed that fans are really hurting more after this loss as we all expected a better performance especially after disposing the Dubs!
The rhetorical question is under this management team will the team be better prepared in a future All Ireland final ? Sin e an cheist?
In my opinion,I would give the management team one more year.
Let’s lift our heads and support our team and hope we will get over the line!
Mhuigheo abu !
We should not be that disappointed that we lost. We were not good enough. We knew at the beginning of the year we were not good enough, we did not play a good game start to finish for 2 years and it was a big ask that we would suddenly do so against a tough team in the final. We do not have enough finishers and we lost our best. We do not have any high fielders around the middle and we force teams to go long. We give up too many goals and do not score many. We are a good well conditioned team that has weaknesses and critical areas that need improving and when it came down to it we did not have much on our bench and yet if we had been smarter and taken our opportunities we could be champions and we are generally moving in the right direction.
The Connacht Telegraph story I would take with a pinch of salt going by their recent history but its a story that’s been swirling in football circles in Mayo all week.
Few comments here even referenced witnessed a row between management on the sideline last Saturday.
There is zero earthly excuse why Tyrones tackle count was over 3 times more than ours, apart from psychological pressure.
Interesting discussion on which final loss was the most disappointing.
I don’t agree with Ed putting 2013 way down the list. Its not at all on a par with 2016 and 17 for me
Dublin were a much more seasoned team the latter two seasons, and on both occasions we came through the back door and threw in some horrendous performances. 2016 was the definition of absolutely falling arse backwards into a final, 2017 we only got going in Croker and still couldn’t put either Ros or Kerry away the first day out. We were 3/1 rank outsiders in those finals
By comparison in 2013 we won every game pulling up, including absolutely hockeying the defending champions. Dublin were there for the taking yet we were just so flat on the day.
There’s no way – for example – that 2012 was tougher to take than 2013 imo. In 12 we weren’t at all expected to make a final that season, limped over the line against a hungover Dublin and bet no-one else of note – we just weren’t fully ready to win an all Ireland that early in our development. We actually didn’t play too badly in the final either – just never created a goal chance. We lost to a better side. 2013 we had hit our peak and Dublin hadn’t hit theirs. Still gutting
With regard to this year there are 2 ways of looking at it. We were rank outsiders at the start of the year, and when Cillian got injured, Galway became many people’s favourites for Connacht. It was a Mayo side still a level below 2013 to 2017, and ranked well below Dublin and Kerry. At that point to make a final – knowing we had Dublin in our half of the draw – would have been seen as fanciful
Yet everything seemed to fall into place just like with Galway in 1998 for example, Kerry in 2014, or the Clare hurlers in 2013, or Limerick in 2018. The key difference, however, was that these teams grasped their opportunity when they got them. Galway hadn’t yet hit their peak in 98, Limerick hurlers the same in 2018, Clare and Kerry have flattered to deceive ever since but they all crucially fed off momentum and breaks that went their way. They embraced their opportunities with absolute open arms. None of those sides would have been in the top 3 favourites at the beginning of those seasons
So while we may have technically overachieved this year, and while we’re not as good as previous Mayo sides, its still a final we lost as favourites and its still a championship where so much breaks went in our favour and that was thrown wide open, just like with those examples above
So overall for me (I don’t remember 89), it would be 1996 – 2013 – 2021 – 1997 – 2012 – 2016 – 2017 – 2020 in order of disappointment
Makes for a great high stool conversation though
Well said Darkey Finn and I assume that in your first sentence you are referring to getting the “Psychological” right and absolutely – get management team in formal structure that can’t disintegrate on the day under pressure that has more than the evident limitations on rational thinking. I agree that these are the 2 main critical takeaways from this year and for all the reasons you suggest, we should be in a similar position next year
Leantimes, the evidence of one’s eyes doesn’t appear to stand on its own without what your head tells you on it.
I think that’s where there are differences of opinion.
Theodore Roosevelt, I’m sure, was an observer of humanity as we are,
Tyrones tackle count was higher because our time in posession was longer. Tryone attacked very direct. James Horan will think it’s workrate of course.
I usually can’t wait for these podcasts but I have to say I thought this podcast was a bit tame in comparison to Enda on Ah ref who asked the questions that as WJ referenced, has made people so angry about this defeat. And James Horan is at the centre of that anger. Jim Gavin was in constant communication with his eye in the stands, James has no such communication and seemed to walk away from his selectors. And you can take it as true that Ciaran Mc has left and he follows a long line as Enda named that walked away for the same reason. On the big day Horan won’t listen to anyone, and it has cost us dearly again.
Totally agree with Puckout. A podcast titles “ALl Ireland Final Fallout” and it doesnt mention anything about the biggest issues. I know the team want to stay on board with the Mayo camp but that doesnt mean you cant ask / mention hard questions or state facts.
Enda on the Ah Ref podcast mentioned a lot of issues – and to be fair to him he has mentioned some of them previously. He also mentioned strengths so it doesnt need to be all negative.
Yesterday it was a rumour that Ciaran Mac is gone / today it is in newspapers. Today there is a talk about another selector resigning so interesting to see if that gets reported.
We all need to catch breath and take a step back.
Yes we lost, we got to the final by having a good 2nd half v Galway (usual Galway all huff and puff) and same v Dublin plus extra time (I’m told that Dublin have serious internal problems)
In the final we created but couldn’t finish. Left 3/4 goals behind and 7/8 points. We’ve the template to improve. I didn’t expect us to get to the final this year, we froze on the day, pity.
Now is the time to key players unwind and management reflect.
We will go that step further and I’m optimistic about next year and the future.
The Mayo person with coaching experience that talks the most sense and is modern is Andy Moran. Crucially, Andy was not naturally talented and made himself great. I would love to see Andy in a joint managership with one other.
Andy covers the football, coaching and tactics wise.
The other manager covers managing the backroom team operations plan.
For me this current management ticket is now bust.
To not see the impact sub roles for Aidan, Kevin McLoughlin and Diarmuid speaks of totally non evidence based mgmt. In that case we are winning it.
We’d have started Cathal McShane with the roles reversed.
We’d have left Mattie Donnelly on till 55 mins.
We’d never have repositioned Niall Sludden to wingback.
@Msyo13bg I would question that we created chances. I seen no system of attacking play. It was all half chances and individual efforts.
If it is true that said forward coach is gone then fine thank him for his service maybe he wasn’t been listened to but I saw absolutely no evidence that we had devoloped an attacking plan in the last two years I’m fact we struggled to beat Clare & Westmeath we didn’t
Play against Galway or Dublin in the first half and in the final our half forwards looked like guys going to their first disco afraid to go on the dance floor it was awful stuff gr them they and AOS looked clueless in front of the posts. Bring in Peter Canavan as forwards coach he can come in and say look boys there’s my all ireland medal and there’s my sons this is how you kick the fcuking thing over the bar. Whatever McDanger was at it didn’t work but maybe he wasn’t been listened too.
I really hope the rumours are just noise. As supporters we need to stick behind the team. Mayo GAA needs to bring in the extra resources over the winter to get us over the line next year. They can definitely afford the best of best for the team, especially after all the raffles they ran.
However I do think there is a lot of BS associated with the current Mayo set up. Maybe I’m overthinking it, but I saw a video clip of the players and management getting off the bus before heading for the dressing rooms on All Ireland day. There was a hand full of people you could pick out that didn’t need to be on the team bus. I’m not mentioning any names, but I really believe that Mayo county board needs to let the Mayo management team ‘manage’ the team.
Simply cut the BS and bring home SAM.
If it is the case that the manager won’t listen to his right hand men on the big day then what’s the point in staying in the job.
Why have so many people in the management team ?what is really the job of a selector? surely the manager picks the team and orders when all substitutions are to be made.
Maybe it’s time for a full change, a new way of thinking, change isn’t all bad yet people are generally afraid of what it may bring.
If I was making the decision I would look to freshen things up a bit, some older guys would be retired.
Glory Days – you say “maybe he wasn’t been listened to but I saw absolutely no evidence that we had devoloped an attacking plan”
If you arent listened to how can you develop an attacking plan? Maybe he did develop an attacking plan but manager didnt listen.
I agree with you that we have no attacking plan (pther than the old reliable)
Its funny how last May after Cillians injury nearly everyone was saying 2021 would be a good year if we returned to Division 1 and a bonus to win Connaught. We got to the All Ireland Final .
Lat year everyone was delighted that Ciaran Mc Donald was joining the management but there has been no improvement in our forward play in the last year.
Now the loss of Cillian O C didn’t help but he was there for the 2020 Final
There was no applications from outside managers for the position when Stephen Rochford departed in 2019
It would be a brave person who would apply for the Mayo Manager position
Take the views of Mayo fans before this years Final . Tyrone a top four team for the last 20 years with 3 Final wins under their belt in that time totally ignored .
When Mayo win we as fans put them the Management and Players up on a pedestal when we loose everyone is rubbish while in reality we are somewhere in between.
Its the same with Ex Players .. W J Padden was god where the reality is TJ Kilgallon was far better. The reason I say that is WJ could leap into the sky and field a ball but three times out of four he would lash it back up into the air and give it back to the opposition . T J not as flamboyant but made much better use of possession. The proof was when TJ was injured Mayo lost. WJ had a good year in 1989. TJ played with an injury in 1989
Ciaran Mc Donald was a very flamboyant player also .
Ciaran scored a side line kick and the winning point against Dublin in the Semi Final of 2006 a total of two points. In the Final against Kerry in total he scored one point from a free kick
Kevin O Neill who came on as a sub scored two points in the Semi Final but he also used the ball well Kevin scored two goals in 2006 Final . Kevin was not on the 2004 panel .
I would have Kevin O Neill any day on a Mayo team ahead of Ciaran McD but I would be in a minority as Mayo Fans prefer the flamboyant and only remember the flamboyant. By the way Horan scored four points from play in both his Final appearances
In Mayo Fans Memories Ciaran McDonald shoots the lights out but in reality he was a good forward but never shot the lights out and had a habit of giving the ball to the opposition when trying the pass with the outside of the boot. Cillian O Connor a great forward.
Management collectively had a great day on the sideline for the semi final – I was really impressed with the timely and intelligent substitutions and not only that but the reintroduction of players late in the game.
I might be wrong but I detect we are heading into 2006 and 2018 recrimination territory and those are not pretty places to be.
It is those aspects of football that really put me off, unfortunately.
Connacht telegraph reporting Kieran Mc Donald has left the Management team. Those giving out about our forwards should be happy now!!!!!
Many thanks for that observation MadMayoRob which confirms that the cultural problem with the setup is through the whole system that County Board people were actually on the Team Bus. Did the All Ireland winning Mayo team not revolt – led by Sean Flanagan – and insist they stayed away from them?
The anger and upset is clear on the comments section from Mayo people on the Connsught Telegraph facebook page (some who I know) over Ciaran MacD resignation. I was disappointed after listening to the podcast that Edwin McGreal didn’t dwell more on the Manager’s poor performance, there was no mention of previous selectors having walked away or the disagreement on the sideline on Saturday. At this stage now I think James Horan will step down. A lot of support in the county is draining away.
Ó Sullivan, agree with alot of your comments, weve never had a gouch type forward, Cillian is as close as it gets
There’s no confirmation as yet as to whether or not that Connaught Telegraph article, written by THAT journalist, is actually true. All that piece does is rehash an earlier report, in The Sun, which hasn’t been confirmed yet either. It could all be true – and not at all surprising if it is – but it’s just worth making the point that, as things stand, it’s just a rumour that two papers (one of which has plenty of form in doing this) have decided to run with.
And as for the Connaught Telegraph Facebook page, Jesus God if we’re using that as a barometer of opinion on anything then things are seriously awry.
@paddyban….ive said it before and I’ll say it again why have we never looked at denis kearney. Alas, he went for the job in 06 and 11, where Moran and Horan were chosen instead, so I feel it will have to be the county board who go looking for him (which will not happen of course).
People saying to bring Andy Moran in? Where has he learned his trade as a coach/selector? He needs to be allowed make mistakes and subsequently become a better coach, the mayo senior team is certainly not a setting for a coach to learn and make mistakes. We need to recruit experienced and ruthless personnel.
I also feel Andy hasn’t been gone long enough and was a team mate with many of the current players. We can’t afford to have any favourites or cliques. A ruthless yet positive environment.
Willie Joe – Midwest also have news re selector on their website. They refer to is as speculation
We’re afloat on a sea of speculation so! Bullshit and rumours are king in the modern world, I guess.
Midwest Radio social media now carrying the story WJ. I actually recognise a lot of ordinary fans commenting. I am sad to see Ciaran MacD walking away. He must not have been listened to. Its the team’s loss. It will be interesting to see does the County Board say anything. They may forget about any fundraising with the mood in the county at present.
Andy Moran is favorite to become Longford manager I see. You can’t beat the managerial merry-go-round.
Wide Ball – thats a positive news story if Andy gets the Longford job. A few years experience and an opportunity to prove himself.
The management team appeared to be working well up to the final. The failure in the final was not in creating chances but taking chances. I would expect a sports psychologist has been part of the Mayo backroom team for many a year if only on a part time or occasional basis.
Now its TIMEOUT before any rash decisions, but management under performed when needed most. No soft analysis needed. Tough lessons and changes required…
Some players would never need a psychologist. Andy Moran being one. Always manages to phrase things positively. Lonbgford will be doing well to have him and good for mayo further down the line….
Roll on club championship, this stuff would do your head in
News has it willie joe is the new mayo manager do u believe that too
@JP. Not arguing the attacking structure needs an overhaul but there was plenty of chances in that game..didn’t take them.
In the hills, you have managed to raise a smile with me, a hard thing to have achieved. Good on you!
Can ye see now why I don’t buy or read newspapers, too much stuff to take in. Some Reporters just like to publish bad news whether true or not.
We supporters are selfish in just thinking about our disappointment of not having a great All Ireland final celebration/ buzz, me included.
Can ye imagine what it must be like for the players and management, a tough business.
It’s amazing, we got to a final and beat Dublin, if we had won he’d be a hero and now it’s out for blood, fine line, but I still think Horan should get another year, be careful for what you wish for
I am only now catching up on today’s posts – interesting comments as always here. I recall last year there was a meeting of the County Board Executive over a “tweet”. Then a late night statement released mentioning ‘mutual agreed behaviours based on mutual respect and exclusion of animosity’ mandated by clubs. Yet tonight the CB says “no comment” on news swirling in the county that our cult hero Ciaran MacDonald has resigned. I wonder is there going to be an investigation as to why current selectors are stepping down? Off to listen to the podcast now.
@aah not again, be careful what you wish for also applies with equal logic to Horan staying. Another year of Horanball with nothing else will extinguish us in my view.
Agree with the comments above regarding Enda’s questions on Ah Ref Podcast.
I think he was very balanced – James Horan has brought us to the top table with his organization skills, S&C emphasis etc (and deserves a lot of credit) but he is probably not the guy who will get us an AI as there is not that tactical flexibility in his game.
Despite our poor overall play that game was still there for the taking with 20 minutes to go but we did not make the necessary adjustments (tactical or personnel). taking nothing away from Tyrone, worthy winners, but they are not the team of the century ala Dublin 2015-2020
@Swallow Swoops, it’s hard to smile with the Vultures are circling overhead, and Galway and Roscommon are sharpening their axe’s, for next year already, they sence a wounded animal and smell blood.. The evenings are drawing in. Everyone who is alive will be a year older, But unfortunately that’s 11 year’s older for myself, because I aged at least 10 year’s at the match last Saturday, some of ye other Mayo fans are the lucky ones, and only aged 5 year’s… If we had won, I would be 15 years younger, same as everyone else, but none the wiser, I expect.. I just like Theodore Roosevelt, am a keen observer of humanity.. A notorious Earl of Lucan, the Baron of Castlebar, once upon a time led his men into the cannoncade during the Crimian War, it was an ill concievied battle plan, Bingham didn’t listen to his critics, thus ensuring that he would double the amount of critics he already had to start with.. And his men were slaughtered in the Charge of the light Brigade..
Jp, you could be right, but I still think with what he has brought to the table he should finish he’s contract, even if its only for next manager
The AH Ref podcast is the best analysis I’ve heard. Kudos to the lads – proper home truth after home truth
Fully agree with their perspective
Ah ref podcast back on form this week. That episode was like the old ones that made it so popular. Well said at the start. Hope Enda is feeling better. Up Mayo!!
I think we over achieved big time – and got a bit of luck with the draw- in getting to the last two all Ireland finals.
There are a lot of very average players on the current Mayo panel and a lot of lads at the one level who are just not good enough to win an All Ireland.
The Dublin team we beat this year were not a patch on the Dublin team of 2-4 years ago. Over the course of the final we had at least 7 different players who had chances of points or goals that should have been scored but didn’t. This to me proves our panel of players is not good enough. The ultimate test of a player is to be able to perform on the biggest day of all.
Fair point JP but Mayo pride themselves on savage tackling from FF to FB. It abandoned us on Saturday. We should have given Tyrone a taste of their own medicine. The discrepancy between the two teams statistically was staggering on Saturday in this regard.
Great podcast lads. Regarding James’ RTE interview where he mentioned our poor skill execution afterwards, it struck me that he must be quizzed deeper on this at some point. As yee indicate in the pod, why was this key aspect grossly sub-par on All Ireland final day?
Let’s wait and see, but if Mc has walked on bad terms it could split the camp and send Mayo back to the dark ages.
Southmayo Exile – I agree to an extent about some of the players in our squad, but you don’t need 15 or 20 outstanding players to win an all Ireland currently. Tyrone are deserving champions yet there are a few very average players in their team. Credit to Dooher/Logan for setting them up in a way that doesn’t expose their limitations. Kerry had a quite a few passengers in their team when it came to the crunch. Dublin’s starting 15 still looks the strongest on paper, but the spark seems to be gone with them.
why cant the County Board be honest with the people of Mayo and say whither C Mc Donald has resigned or not
Some mess now. Turning really sour.
This time last week there was such hope 🙁
The issue of selectors walking away aside…McDonald is a big name but great players don’t make great managers. Galway fans can’t wait to get rid of their greatest forward Padraig Joyce.
Our forward play has been poor all year. Our half forward line don’t score…they don’t bloody score.
Could an Andy Moran be coaxed in?
If Ciaran McDonald has resigned I wish him the very best and thank him for the time he has given to our cause
However I don’t think he had the qualifications for the job and I was surprised Horan had requested him to join the management panel.
McDonald was a great forward at Club Level but would only be rated as a good Forward at County Level
The “no comment” – did ye ever hear the likes!!! Just shows what the crew in charge think of the fans. Will we have to wait until the first FBD game to see if Ciaran and James Burke are on the sideline!
McDonald is widely regarded nationwide as one of the greats to have played the game – he carried a poor enough Mayo side to two all Ireland finals. If only James had listened to him during the game, maybe we wouldn’t all be having this conversation. Horan has to realise his in-game management is shocking bad and he needs the help of a good selector.
I’m not joking when I say that I would have done better with that team of players last Saturday and I have no serious management experience . Why? Because I saw how Kerry played into tyrones hands 2 weeks earlier and I would have set the team up to retain possession, kick the damn ball and not run down blind alleys. It would have been a low scoring affair but a controlled game plan. Horan learned absolutely nothing from the Kerry tactics and that is shocking and some would say unforgivable.
James has one tactic, and one tactic only: Horan Ball.
I like it, but it’s probably proven beyond doubt at this stage that it will win us nothing. Maybe another League title but certainly not an All Ireland.
Great point @our time has come. We should have set out to make it a low-scorer. Control the game. Keep ball and frustrate those Northerners. Even as bad as we were, we showed we could punch holes, plenty holes, but if we were more controlled we’d have been calmer, less chaos, less anxiety, scores would have come, and Tyrone might have been be the ones having to force the issue.
It wasn’t to be.
I think our problems are solved – we have a few people on the blog that could do a better job with the team than the current manager.
I’m not actually trying to be smart here.
As for vultures, Leantimes, it looks like there are plenty within our own county.
i fully agree with OUR TIME HAS COME i could not put it better myself
Too soon to be getting Andy Moran involved, I agree with poster who said he isn’t gone long enough and would still be too friendly with some of the players
By all accounts he is keen to pursue county management though so maybe he could take the longford or Leitrim gig and learn the trade before returning for mayo job in 3 or 4 years
Andy runs a sizeable business that he founded. Pretty sure he’s got the mindset to have an independence in his decision making.
In my view Andys knowledge of the game exceeds Horans.
Andy played in the modern era.
Andy made himself a footballer with deep thought on the game.
He has also worked with our players at u20 level.
@Swallow Swoops, that may be true, if a vet and a solicitor from Tyrone can win an All-Ireland at their first time of asking why not, it’s Gaelic Football, not neurology.
Didn’t take them long to figure it out did it.
Maybe Fabby & Morahan should throw their hat in the ring.
We’d have a good a chance as any of winning an All-Ireland.
Our Time Has Come .I think I know as much as you about football. I am saying he was a good forward at Inter County Level. He was a flamboyant player no doubt but not a Matt O Connor, Kevin O Neill , Cillian O Connor, The Gouch, McManus, Brogan, to name but a few. He did not carry any Mayo Team on his own and if you knew anything about Mayo Football you would not be dismissing some of the great players who he played with when you stated that he carried the Mayo Team on his own. He had plenty of help from the likes of Heaney, Higgins, Nallen, Gardiner, McGarrity, Brady, Dillon, Mortimer , Moran to name but a few.
Not that it makes me any wiser than your good self about Mayo Football but I have been attending Mayo Club and County Games for the last 45 years and I worked in Kerry when he was in his hay day and Kerry were never too worried about him . I was at ever Mayo game he played and to be honest he scored some super scores but also tried some ridiculous plays which did not work out.
Now to take you about my BS and MdDonald carrying Mayo to two Finals
2004. Q Final McDonald 1 free A Dillon 6 points, Conor MortImer 3points , Trevor MortImer 2 points
McDonald did not carry Mayo that day
Semi Final Mc Donald 2 Dillon 2 C Mortimer 4 T Mortimer 1
Final McDonald scored one point from play
2006 Q Final McDonald 1 point a 45. Replay H e scored 1 point
Semi Final McDonald 2 POINTS
Final 1 point
Now maybe I am getting old . But i have been following Mayo attending every Championship Game played in Ireland since 1979 . All the home League and half of the away league matches, every weekend in that time i have attend club games on Saturdays and Sundays and to be described as BS well I guess it is time for me to call it a day . I have lived in Times when Mayo found it difficult to even win a championship match 1970s and in 1989 was delighted to be in Croake Park when we beet Tyrone to reach a final
Ah ref podcast&seeming poor communication amongst Mayo Mgmt reminded me of something I spotted watching Tyr V Kerry game back. Mattie Donnelly won ball in tyr defence came out and passed ball to big Conn Kilpatrick who was caught flat footed&Kerry turnover resulted. 30seconds later sub was ready and Conn came off looking so exhausted Ger Canning even remarked on how weary he looked. So, it’s clear Tyrone have excellent comms in place /monitoring energy of key players.
I think it’s fair comment to ask serious questions regarding game management specifically when it comes to finals, you could throw in the 2014 semi if you pushed it.
But a pattern is emerging here and it’s costing us dearly.
But we must remember, there is no intent here, James Horan wants to win an All-Ireland as much as any of us but something is going on regarding decision making when it comes to finals.
Pep Guardiola who would be recognized as one of the worlds top managers had a similar issue when it came to the latter stages of the Champions League, indeed he lost the last final when he made a frankly bizarre team selection.
Pep seemed to have lost all logic completely, did he overthink or under think it or did the pressure simply wreak havoc with his judgment.
Is the overwhelming pressure of delivering actually effecting decision making to such an extent that someone can totally convince themselves that they are 100% correct in everything they do which would explain the perceived lack of consultation with the selectors etc.
If so, then is criticism unfair to a degree, in the same way that Pep Guardiola’s bizarre decisions when under pressure to win the Champions League don’t all of a sudden make him a bad manager as opposed to being one of the best in the World.
Or is there more to it, have we just become a one trick pony as well, are our half-forwards not scoring enough because we have developed a running game that makes our half-forwards ineffective because we have failed to work adequately on getting quick ball into them and does that offer any explanation as to why it was easier for Tyrone to frustrate our “one trick” game plan as opposed to us having an adequate tweak of our approach.
Going to be a long postmortem I think.
Revellino – I get that you want to let off steam but if you want to do it in those terms then please do it somewhere else. I’m trying to ensure that the debate here is fair and reasonable and your effort there was neither.
@Swallow Swoops, Vultures in every County in Ireland I’m afraid, The Swallow or the Lark, or especially the Swan, by far my favorite Bird’s of the feathered variety.. But official Ireland seems to prefer the Cookoos and the Vultures.. The Vultures wait for you to die or be wounded, and the Cookoos lay an egg in the nest and it’s offspring throws out the young of the nests rightful owner.. The Golden Geese who have laid all the Golden Eggs down the years are the Mayo supporters, who have paid for all this, and when tickets were being sold at face value,+ + + (how much??) to corporate Ireland, the Golden Geese were getting pissed off..but sure they would have no need of the old continually relaible Golden Geese if they won the All Ireland, there would be a surplus of new Golden Geese, all ready to pluck.., , I have absolutely no influence, as to who plural will manage Mayo in 2022.. Don’t think any of us have at this juntion.. I would say everyone posting here have a very genuine interest in best for Mayo… Even people with a opposite opinion to myself , can be just as genuine in their undoubted love and loyalty to their native County.. The people who herd their dwindling flock of Golden Geese, will make the decisions.. Every summer I see the Swallow nesting and rearing their young in a nearby barn, they make fantastic parents, bringing insect’s constantly to their young, you could never doubt their motives, they will defend and feed their young even to the death..
@Revellino, do you think enough supporters will actually turn on the County Board in an organized fashion though, in other words an organized boycott that would extend down to even people not supporting things like their club lotto’s as a way of hitting the County Board in the pocket ?
Is it a line in the sand moment.
Leantimes Very Very Good
Yes WJ steam it was 🙂
@ Viper: Frankly, no I don’t think people will start boycotting their lottos and such.
Time seems to fog the memory and at some stage things will settle down.
Everyone at some stage will be back on the same wavelength. We seem to run in to alot of controversy in Mayo but I suppose we are not unique in that regard.
Dublin for example have had a number of players who have opted out for whatever reasons over the past few years, some without much or any explanation as to why, and while there has been some querying of the reasons for them pulling out, all the initial hullabaloo has kind of faded in to the background.
It might take Dublin a couple of years to get back on track. I don’t think Tyrone were the world beaters they appeared to be last Saturday. They were very good but certainly not unbeatable.
Kerry most probably will improve with new management, but given all that, I feel there will be no team miles ahead of another out of the top 5 or 6 come next year.
If we could assign this year as a team development year and improve again for next year we could be back at the end of the knockout stages of the championship again.
The search for additional talent to add to the panel is critical, and with the club Scene back on the menu its important now to have a settled management and sideline team in place as soon as possible to gauge who has what it takes around the county.
I don’t believe last week’s performance will send Mayo football in to a nose dive. I do think that the performance would be a good template for identifying all those areas where we underperformed and came up short.
This year is gone and we have to accept that, but we need to add a few strings to our bow now so that we can ensure we have more than one way of moving that ball of wind up the pitch.
All isn’t lost but it’s up to us to make it happen.
@Viper, you replied to a post I wrote yesterday about German effeciency and the 2006 World Cup.. mentioning that the Germans would know what Morgan had for breakfast never mind the side Morgan would dive to.. Interesting you should note that, for the World Cup quarter final, Germany met Argentina in the fantastic Olympic Stadium in Berlin.. It went to penalties, Jens Lehmann was in Goal for the game and penalties.. The great bear of German football, goalkeeper Oliver Khan had fallen out with Lehmann and was sub Goalkeeper on the day.. and by all accounts not spoken to Lehmann for weeks, only room between the sticks for one of them.. But when it came to penalties, Khan came out with a piece of paper written on a resteraunt/bar receipt, with the names of the Argentina penalty takers and the side they would kick the ball to, and gave it to Lehmann, their own particular cold war ended in the City the big cold war started.. Obsiously Oliver Khan had planned to be in Goal himself and had did his own homework, not alone did Khan get all the right penalty takers, he also got the side they would kick the ball, links order rechts… Of course the German always win on penalties, it helps to have your homework done, even if you’re not talking to your rival for your position.. I lived in Germany for years and in German sport their is a concept of Endspiel, (it literally means End Game, but also referres to a final of any event, their is a whole phycology of Endspiel, and basically finals are not like semifinals at all, you also hear about it in the ending of a game of Chess.. If you recall in last year’s Champions League semifinal, Bayern Munich won was it 7-1 versus Barcelona, but only 1-0 v PSG in the final.. Germany in 2014 beat Brazil in Rio 7-2 in the semifinal, but only beat Argentina 1-0 AET, in the final.. This concept of Endspiel probably suits the German mindset, wonder would it suit Mayo.. One part of it certainly would, the part that says Semifinals are a different ball game altogether to the final!
The amount of lads on here that can set up and manage a team to an AI winning performance is unreal…How with so much managerial talent to pick from have we not an AI winning manager in place. I can’t understand it..maybe actually managing is tougher than hitting the keyboard..maybe that’s it..who knows?
@walterwhite, you’re 100% right. Like I suggested earlier, we need to take a step back and evaluate where the team are and what we can do to move on, we’re very close.
I guess it’s frustrating as we get to the final frequently but are yet to be on the right side of the scoreboard come finish time.
Being the Mayo manager is probably the most stressful of the live county roles. The expectations, the weight of time, the football mad county that we are / have become due to the past decade.
Everyone, football and non-football people now all have an absolute expert view on the way the team should play, be selected, train and of course by managed.
I don’t envy James Horan, he was placed on a pedestal after beating Dublin and now that pedestal is in ruins. We’re a fickle bunch, more haste less speed is needed.
We lost last week as we didn’t take the chances created on the pitch and made some mistakes. Shooting is a weak point, the individual players need to address this. Practice, practice and practice.
That’s the problem in Mayo we put players and former players up on pedestals. We lost our 11th All Ireland final inc replays out half forward line was the weakest line in the team and failed to score. Our captain failed to score as he has in 7 all ireland finals even though he has in fairness been immense for Mayo over the years. But go back to the half forwards not scoring and not playing well and we want to keep the forwards coach? If the forwards coach can’t get the half forwards to score than no matter if he was Lionel Messi he should be dispensed with. If that happened in Kerry they’d be calling for heads to roll as we can see with Peter Keane. I am a huge Ciaran Mc fan but I am sick of losing all Ireland’s and am sick of us not having a ruthless streak to kill teams off so if our coaches can’t Instill that in our teams then get rid and bring in someone that has proved they can at the highest level or are we all happy about losing finals?
@glorydays, I agree, the 1/2 forward line has to make contributions to the scoreboard. Loftus had a go but left 1:3 behind, Walsh had the goal opp but didn’t back himself on his left and by the time he did his turn on to his right he was swallowed up, Diarmuid plays in midfield now, he was a scorer but not recently, k MC was out a lot but only too his first shot in the 57m, did score to be fair. Flynn had a snap shot, I don’t recall Orme doing anything, Coen had a bad wide then one short, Carr came on when game was over (he was good v Dublin, 2 wides granted but moved well) Aidan kicked bad wide and had a goal opp (he has been immense for years, full agree) all above meant that scores from open play from our forwards bad to come from Tommy and Ryan. As Paddy Andrews said, these guys are good forwards but not at the level yet to win a game on their own…the guys listed above had to help out. The didn’t unfortunately. Mattie also had no shots and he had been a nett factor in winning v Galway and Dublin.
Tyrone just had our card marked better.
Think mc was gone when he retreated to the stand towards the end of the 2nd half.
Don’t know James Burke, or even know what club he’s from but he’s been hounding Horan on the sideline all year. It’s seems clear to me that this guy is ferociously passionate in trying to get his points across and influence the manager. You could see the belief in his eyes when trying to make a point and the deflation in his body language when he could see he was being ignored. The manager treated him like a drunk in a bar, turning this was and that to avoid him. He’s obviously not a yes man and obviously very passionate about football so imo this guy needs to be kept in Mayo football somewhere.
Again I don’t know the guy, surely someone on here could enlighten me further, maybe he has nothing to offer but last sat we only had 4/5 players perform on the pitch and this guy in fairness to him did his best to perform on the sideline.
Can’t blame him for going. He isn’t listened to. And @leanstimes re Galway, they have their own issues brewing
I’ve just had a hunt around online and there’s still no confirmation to the story about departures from the backroom team. While these may well turn out to be true, for now they remain in the realm of speculation so it might be as well to approach this apparent development in that way if commenting on it. Better still, wait up altogether until there’s definitive confirmation one way or another on it.
Thanks lads for another podcast on a truly long and miserable week.
I’m totally with WJ on this one, to the point of being disappointed with the suggestion by Edwin that maybe somehow the supporters are to blame, for caring too much? Well from what I’ve heard over the last week from some lifelong, staunch Mayo supporters that problem may not exist next season and I would not be surprised to see reduced numbers in the grounds and season tickets becoming available.
I was disappointed to hear that we may be part of the problem when you consider just how poorly we’ve been treated as supporters.
We’re constantly fleeced with 2 or 3 new jerseys (@ €70 a shot) every year, including some makey uppey ones like the New York one and some charity ones. I know you don’t have to buy one but there is such a thing a peer pressure on young kids and without doubt we’ve reached saturation marketing. It’s OK to flog supporters when the medals are rolling in, but it’s another thing when the jersey is becoming a source of fun and ridicule for rival counties. And it is.
Our club scene has in effect been ditched and thrown to one side so Horan can have 40 odd players in a panel. What’s the point in that when he then doesn’t use subs in a game and when he does it’s to throw on a player who had spent 3 days in hospital a week out from a final. And then he puts him in at the 74th minute!! Or puts on a total novice who had 40 mins of senior intercounty football played to date, while leaving All Star defenders on the bench when our defense was being ripped asunder!
As fans we are totally disrespected with regards to info and updates from the camp. The token press nights are an exercise in Jim Gavin-speak.
They train completely locked in behind doors, as if they were reinventing the game somehow and some title winning secret was being worked on. I think we all know that’s not the case. There’s more security and locked gates around MacHale Park on a training night than there is around Fort Knox.
As season ticket holders we get ignored in terms of priority treatment for tickets and then get flung up to the rafters of Croke Park at semi finals and finals, while the corporate arse kisses and the “sunglasses in the hair” brigade who just flew in the morning of the game sit between the two 45’s. We then get an email in October looking for another couple of hundred euros, within days, and if you have a juvenile ticket at the time of the ticket purchase, but that juvenile will turn 18 in the forthcoming season, you have to pay adult fare. Even if that juvenile is 17 going to the games!
We get dragged up to Dublin for Saturday night league games, further fleecing our pockets in an attempt to get big numbers to stay over.
The shakedown by the county board with the ticket offerings in the lead in to the final was an utter disgrace and one they must be held answerable to. Contacting companies with the offer of €1000 tickets under the guise of a training fundraiser, and at the same time pushing their tile sale with the promise of more tickets, while season ticket holders get shafted and then the same county board renages on previously agreed ticket allocations to clubs.
There has been literally millions of €’s raised and handed over to the county board over the last few years, just think what some of that could have done for the clubs? Maybe we wouldn’t have club players having to pay for their own medical and physio treatments while their clubs avoid paying out on the injury fund?
But yeah, somehow WE’RE the problem.
Truth is, and some media outlets are afraid to call it as it is, this shambolic performance is ALL on the players and management. No one else. As was said on another podcast, what other top level county with the level of funding and support behind it that Mayo has, would accept 4 final defeats by the same manager?
As WJ said, there is a different feel in this aftermath and it’s not goodwill or sympathy. It’s more a “fuck them” type of feeling.
We’re entering very different territory and if the rumours of Mcdonald and others walking off the backroom team are true, well then it will be unavoidable but to address the elephant in the room.
Super article by Frank Roche in today’s Indo on Mayo’s failings and what we need to do.
In the 4 All Ireland finals Horan oversaw we shipped 8 goals and scored only 1. Think about that stat for a second Yet, if the game was won on points scored, we’d be champs on those 4 occasions. So, nothing wrong really with our points shooting. Its still just shite defending and an inability to hit the net that’s costing us.
O’Sullivan I’ll guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree re McDonald. I apologise if I caused you any offence. All I will say is that his scoring wasn’t his strongest point as a player – although they’re were some beauties – it was his link play, passing and assists. A thing of beauty. Some still argue he should have played in the full forward line to get more scores out of him.
As for Kerry not being too bothered about him, they certainly were. Their well known phrase hammer the hammer was never so true as when they played Mayo and why I stand over the fact it was an average Mayo team in 04 & 06. Kerry targeted mcdonald in those finals and we fell apart as a result, he was that important to us. Now there is more than the other players to blame, that was a tactical error on managements behalf.
Walterwhite, I never said I’d do a better job managing Mayo, I said I’d have set up the team better for the final tactically and I stand over that assertion. Now you might say hindsight is 20:20 but I was so confident going into the final because I recognises tyrones gameplan in the semifinal could be countered. They relied on turnovers for over 50% of their scores. How do you beat them? Avoid turnovers – simple. But no, we repeated the exact same errors as Kerry – they conceded 2-7 from turnovers and we conceded 1-7 (50% of their tally). We learned nothing from their semi final and we failed to adapt tactically from our usual one dimensional predictable running gameplan. Do you believe that was the right tactic?
I admire Horan as a manager and his development of youth is second to none. I want to see him stay on but he must recognise that his stubbornness and failure to adapt/change tactics to suit the opposition is one of our major weaknesses. He should have listened to his selectors over the years. Jim gavin certainly did.
Agree with alot of the posts here, every time we lose a final I end up saying we out pointed them on the day, says it all.
Aginst Northern teams you need to be patient like Dublin and hold the ball until opportunity arrives, also does anyone know why we never tried to take any marks, surley this is away of getting inside and getting a free shot.
Problem is could we kick it over afterwards
Pebblesmeller….Well said, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, the secrecy is a killer, 42 players on the panel when they have no money, Saturday evening last done it for me, bringing on the fellow from Knockmore was the final act one thinks. slan
Funny, but the one year we definitely SHOULD have beaten Dublin in the final was ’16. Both days. And what did we have? We had a SWEEPER. Kevin Mcloughlin. Yet, all I was hearing around that time was ‘ah Mayo are not natural playing a sweeper’, ‘we’re not using it correctly’ etc. Yet it should have gotten us over the line. With a running game as our strength, perhaps we should have stuck with it and perfected it further as the two go hand-in-hand and dovetail very well.
On Sunday, I found it incredible to see Tyrone pushing up entirely on our kickout then retreating 15 men behind the ball in their own half. Obviously they have it down to a fine art. To my eyes, every time they were defending they had 14 or 15 red and white shirts in their own half, sometimes leaving just the one forward in Mayo’s half. Puke football at its best, but it works, and they’ve refined it from the noughties to come up with yet another new winning formula.
I still maintain that we still possess the best defenders in Ireland. But we cannot continue leaving them open. It’s admirable playing man-to-man but with our neurosis in finals, and with the chaos we play with, we’re always going to give our opponents chances. And the maddening thing is they always take them and that is why we lose.
This is the reality.
Horan got rid of CM as he mentioned that he was looking for more of a goal scoring threat from his forwards. Did this work ?
I’m stating now having seen everything over the past few years, Horan would be better suited as a minor or u20 manager to get the guys ready for the Senior level.
He didn’t get rid of Mortimer Mayo88. Mortimer wasn’t picked to start so he threw his toys out of the pram and left the panel, followed by cringeworthy statements from his family. Truly unbelievable.
Mortimer had his chances in two All Ireland finals and struggled desperately in both. It was entirely James’ perogative to pick him or bench him. If Conor remained, who knows he could have started the 2012 semi and final and helped Mayo win the All Ireland.
But please don’t blame Horan on this.
For sure he did the right thing, Horan wanted a running team CM took to much out of the ball, surely he should have seen same problems with his captain
James for the most part got rid of the sense of entitlement and ego from Mayo football and must be applauded for that. Problems remain, but look how far he’s brought us. He might not get us over the line but I see no alternatives.
@Ah now – I did a little digging on James Burke yesterday. He’s from Ardnaree, living in Dublin for years and plays or played for Ballymun Kickhams!
Only one question from me………When Padraig OH went off in the AIF, shouldn’t sub have been our raging bull Colm B……….surely there would have been 20 good minutes in him of dogged defence and break.out potential ?
Give Horan a break, he brought us from oblivion. Sure his teams made mistakes. He has been very unlucky.
Sean Boylan never listened to his selectors and could not hold on to them. They were known to pick a team and find a different team the following day on the paper. All ball went to ó Rourke corner while Fkynn was a much better option on the other corner. Riellly was started at corner back in the 91 final and was roasted while ó, mallley was on the bench.
He set the tone getting rid of Mortimer. O’Shea has not turned into a liability over night, he will recover.
@Martyk, I watched the game in Claremorris and the few people around me can testify that I was looking for 2 defenders as options in 2nd half, Colm Boyle was the guy I was hoping would come and do a job.
@ourtimehascome. I will park it at this because I will start to sound like a broken record. We scored 15 points..not enough, What should we have scored if we were more efficient in taking our chances..Well you could add another 9 or 10 points to that total…more than enough. Jim McGuiness is pretty astute tactically and he felt it was pretty obvious why Mayo lost the match.
Now I don’t know maybe it’s pressure that causes these misses, I have no doubt that some Mayo players feel it more because of our history but the reality is there were a lot of scores left behind last Saturday.
As for the rest of it, maybe you coach, maybe you could set them up better tactically ,who am I to say?, the point I am trying to make is it is very easy to do all this from the comfort of a keyboard. Is James Horan flexible tactically?..No probably not. Does part of the blame for last Saturday’s loss lie with him? Yup. Is he the main reason we lost…In my opinion No.
Laying any blame at supporters door is a funny one for me. Donegal in 2012 were well all hype – the Dubs have had plenty of hype until they got sick of winning. Kerry are Kerry. Doesn’t seem to bother any other team how their supporters behave. Would someone issue what their expectations of the supporters are please!?
I’d presume from now on if we ever see a final again, we go knowing what the potential outcome might be for us again, no matter the opposition.
From what I could see and hear in the stadium last Sat, everyone was waiting for the team to cop on and take hold of the game – then came the realisation that this wasn’t gonna happen . . . . .
Wrong Jr, reason why Sean Boylan was so successful was because he listened to his selectors & back room team & he also-trawled through Junior clubs to find the kind of player he needed. Aidan O’Shea should be tried full back as he did a fantastic job there before on Donaghy.. Worth a try!!!!! In Goal MATTIE FLANAGAN. Full back line O’HORA – AIDAN – STEPHEN COEN. Half back line should be DURCAN – KEEGAN – EOGHAN McLAUGHLIN. centre field. RUANE & MULLEN
Half forwards. C LOFTUS – K McLOUGHLIN – D. O CONNOR
Full forwards. R O’DONOGHUE – C O’ CONNOR – TOMMY GOALS
SUBS. HESSION, WALSH, HARRISON, PLUNKETT, BRICKENDON, FLYNN, C. O’Shea
ORME, CARNEY, CARR, J DURCAN. THE championship is bound to give us at least 4/5 new skilful talented athletic scoring forwards/ tough defenders for the panel to be S & C over the winter months and introduced during the Allianz League.
Willie the Post, I have lived in Meath for over 30 years and know the scene, he listened to no one
Thanks Mayo88………I just thought Colm could have been the man to lift us……..You can be sure he would have hit the ground running and imagine the roar in the stadium when he ran on………Surely there was 20 dogged determined minutes in him…….
The facts of the matter are if you want to win an All Ireland final you have to score 18 to 20 times. And in doing that if you don’t score a goal you better make damn sure that you don’t conceed one. This has been a consistent failing of Horans teams in finals, eg 8 goals conceded in 4 games with only 1 scored.
His style of play leaves his defense completely exposed. It’s all good and well saying “we focus on ourselves” blah fucking blah, but by ignoring and not preparing for the threats of your opponent you deserve the criticism when it goes tits up. There is a consistent thread of inaction and poor preparation for our opponents strengths eg leaving Kevin Keane on Murphy, leaving Higgins man marking a concussed O’Gara!, not having a plan for Donaghy when he came on in 2014, not having a direct plan for McShane etc etc etc
Compare that to Rochfords record with the same set of backs, 4 goals conceded in 3 finals (2 own goals) with 2 scored, including restricting Dublin to just 11 scores in the drawn 2016 final. Tactical plans for O’Shea marking Donaghy, Dillon lining out at no3 v Tyrone but playing a roaming playmaker etc etc.
When Liverpool were dominating England and Europe in the 70’s and 80’s, Bill Shankly was asked how he was so successful in finals. He answered by saying “you wear your overalls in getting to the finals, but when you get there you must wear your Sunday best”.
Horkans record in finals would suggest that we don’t even know how to knot a tie and polish out shoes.
Thanks for the link re James Burke, I knew a few bits and pieces but have to admit that most of that article is news to me. It’s a great read and I urge all to read it. This guy certainly has much to offer. Thanks again.
James for the most part got rid of the sense of entitlement and ego from Mayo football and must be applauded for that.
Is this some sort of fucking wind up!!!!!!!
@pebblesmeller. If you don’t score a goal, you better make sure.. but we should have scored goals..Jesus christ how hard is that to see?
@Walterwhite… Shoulda, woulda, coulda.
In finals it’s all about the final score.
Willie the post Tommy Conroy doesn’t score goals and he is hasn’t won an all Ireland minor medal unlike Tommy Goals Conroy from Kiltane. AOS at full back would you have him use a mobility scooter or a bycycle as he doesn’t have the pace anymore for the inter county game and a nippy forward would toast him at full back. Diarmuid O Connor hasn’t scored in years so I don’t think he’d be much use to us in the half forwards if we want to win Sam. Kevin McL is 33 and will probably retire. I agree with you about Oisin Mullin at midfield but if he has any sense he will go to Oz. Do you not think Conor Loftus had enough chances at this stage didn’t he miss 1-4 in the final? I think it’s time to give Mark Moran Carr Towey a chance in the league and let them bed in they can’t do any worse
The match was always going to come down to goals and it was well flagged up here and everywhere else to watch out when McShane came in but in he came and got the goal and ye can blame Horan for that but the defenders and goalie must also take the blame. Look it was always a 50/50 match and I was surprised with the amount of talk of Mayo winning easily enough when Tyrone had just defanged a far more potent front 6 on paper than Mayo. Horan has done really well since he came back in but without another 2-3 scoring forwards at his disposal its always going to be a big ask to win it out. Perhaps being back in Division One next year will bring Mayo on further but over the winter Horan has got to unearth some half forwards and hope Cillian O Connor comes back to full fitness. I have no great optimism for Galway next year as we appear to as usual have some nice players but tying it all together appears beyond PJ but I hope he proves me wrong. Best wishes to ye for the rest of the year and hopefully covid will be in the rear view mirror in 2022.
When you look at the work they are doing in Offaly, a small dual county with a man like Michael Duignan at the helm, they make us look like clueless and headless chickens.
It doesn’t matter how many good players Mayo produce because until we get a Michael Duignan type figure at the very top of the pyramid, the Project Manager I keep preaching about, an intelligent but ruthless leader with a clear vision and goal then we are absolutely nothing.
I often wonder has there been a total and utter brain drain from the county and it’s just left with what is left.
So until we get the right people at the top of the pyramid, why bother wasting our time at anything else.
Because before long the Offaly’s of this world will win an All-Ireland before Mayo even figure out how to put winning structures in place, is it any wonder we are the laughing stock of the country.
If Oisin Mullin has any sense he will pack his bags and head down under unless he can be shown that things are going to change drastically.
We don’t deserve the Oisin Mullins or Lee Keegan’s of this world because instead of giving them a realistic chance of success we are managing to destroy their psyche.
Like any project, if it’s not managed properly it will end in tears and that’s what’s been happening to Mayo football for decades and until that changes you may as well take your family on a holiday instead of wasting your money chasing your tail.
@ah now. No wind up. And I did say “for the most part”. You’ll never fully eradicate ego from elite sports and in fact it’s crucial to a degree.
Pre James Horan, we wouldn’t have had a prayer of winning the crunch games we did over the past decade. He made us into a formidable unit and that carried through to Holmes and Connolly and Rochy. The obvious exception is on final days, and I think analysts and supporters alike are largely stumped over this one.
Examples: in ’97 the view was that all we needed was to turn up. An injured Flanagan was selected purely so he could collect his medal – following in his father’s footsteps. How nice.
’04 and ’06, similarly, we approached those finals as cocky underdogs and got destroyed. We had a couple of ‘flamboyant’ players. All good and well, but they didn’t back it up with a performance, including Ciaran Mc who was marked out of it by Eamon fitzmaurice (apart from one wonder point cusack side).
Horan promised to take the bullshit out of Mayo football, and I think you’re being disingenuous if you deny that he achieved that. Perhaps we still have a small bit to go but he’s made exponential progress in this regard.
“If we can winter this one out, we can summer anywhere” that is what Mayo GAA have on thier facebook page now (and looking for people to do the lotto). Talk about putting their heads in the sand and move along nothing to see here!! They are obviously going to ignore the two selectors resigning. Enda McG and Ah Ref Podcast – honest analysis of the game and 100% correct in everything they said. @Pebblesmeller – your post was the best I read since Saturday. This needs to be printed somewhere and I agree with every single thing you said. Bizarre stuff saying the fans are part of the problem. Finally how is the individual involved in the kitvan covid breaking rules fiasco still involved in a ‘Player Welfare’ role?
I visited the dentist last Mon. and naturally the conversation turned to the football final. The practitioner who was a Cork man said he had little interest in Gaelic football, but admired them for the amount of time, effort and commitment they put in. His take on the game was that Tyrone just did their stuff and weren’t really challenged in a meaningful way.
He then went on to express what to me, is a new phenomenon. He said he, and the whole country was hoping that Mayo would win “to put us all out of our misery, and let us get on with our lives as normal” It seems to me this Mayo heartache has touched a nerve, and has now become a national psychological burden for most of the country…
Goagain – saw that…what a post. No mention of thanking the fans for supporting the team throughout the year. The PR at Mayo CB is a joke. Instead “give us more of your money”
The Tyrone CB had two lads giving out free Tyrone flags to their fans as they entered the Hill last Saturday…a small touch be very effective. Our lot would never think of doing that.
Is send some backroom people to the pittsburgh steelers taking the bullshit and sense of entitlement out of mayo football.
Is sending some backroom people to Arsenal taking the bullshit and sense of entitlement out of Mayo football.
Is repeated extremely costly training camps to carlton House taking the bullshit and sense of entitlement out of Mayo football.
Is allowing numerous players to get distracted by their sponsorship deals taking the bullshit and sense of entitlement out of Mayo football.
And on and on and on…..
I think James Horan is a brilliant scout who has a real eye for talent. The problem is though that he then suffocates them by imposing his game to the detriment of their talents. It’s his way or the highway. Maybe he needs to sort his own ego out first.
As Mayo88 and MartyK have stated, the 2nd half, and esp the last quarter, was crying out for Colm Boyle getting in among the Tir Eoghan boys!. He’s really been treated badly by James H – from the wrong club maybe?. Conor Loftus kind of broke our hearts, but let’s not forget, he got on the ball for those opportunities – didn’t fall for him on the day.
@yew_tree, It wasn’t the Tyrone CB that were handing out the free flags for their fans on the Hill, it was a local sports shop based in Cookstown that were handing them out. That said, it’d be a long time before our sponsors or CB gave us ‘free stuff’ given how much dosh we have pumped into the cause over the years.
@Pebblesmeller…You keep ignoring the obvious if it helps you..Good man.
Viper, assuming you are correct about the need for a project manager, what would your project be?
To deliver an All-Ireland with the Mayo team?
If yes, would it be to deliver it in one year, two years or three years with the team?
If we take the present team as a project with a goal to win the All-Ireland, what stage of the project do you guess we were at this year?
Delivery of the final goal or a stage?
I’m not an expert in this field myself.
Or would the project next year be something else?
Right for nearly a week now I’ve been wanting to have my say on here but I’ve kept putting it off, I have watched the game again mainly because the first time was in a crowded pub over here in John bulls land and you miss a lot of things watching in a pub. Ok I think we should have won this game we are a better team than Tyrone, but as most of you have pointed out we lost the game on the sideline. If coaches and selectors walk away after this I don’t blame them the way they were ignored on the day. I’m afraid our manager is just too stubborn and knows little about tactics and he’ll never change from this running attacking game, and most of our best players are wasted playing in positions they are not suited to. Ok I’ve had my little say for what it’s worth. PS when manager steps down S. R. Is not the man to replace him he might have brought us close in 16 and 17 but look how close we came to being knocked out in the qualifiers them years it was the player’s own determination that got us to being within one kick of the ball of winning Sam not a manager who spent the first half of most games sat in stand
Could all the lads on here talking about not renewing their season tickets please drop me a line.
I have one myself but a good few in our group don’t.We’d be delighted to take them off yer hands.
People are just giving out for the sake of it at this stage. The latest thing is not giving out flags to supporters. If we started doing that you’d have people saying relax with the hype.
What makes Michael Duignan better than any of the people involved in the Mayo executive? We’re doing a lot right at the end of the day.
Does many on this blog remember jack o shea managing mayo. Be very careful what u wish for. 38 years from 51 to 89 in the doldrums. We have a man that has rebuilt mayo to a challenging position after retirement s on mass. No cillian. No Harrison. . Give the man a break for god sake. A month waiting for the match was also very telling
@Walterwhite, enlighten me so. Seeing as you know so much more here than everyone else, maybe you can show me what I’m obviously ignoring.
You can go on about goals we should have scored all you like. It’s totally irrelevant because we didn’t score them. That’s like the old if my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle.
I never said I knew more than anyone else but isn’t it pretty obvious if you keep missing clear cut chances it means you are never going to accumulatea a score high enough to win an AI..Do you not understand that Pebble? It is completely relevant. That’s like saying Mayo had 10 one on one’s with the Keeper and didn’t score..your argument would be its not relevant because they didn’t..It would be completely relavant to the result. At what point do misses exactly become relevant to you?
Remember this or that or whatever but I’d say the majority here can remember, 89,96,97 04,06,12,13,16,17,20 and this absolute disaster of a final last week . Last year , no crowd in attendance, still looked afraid to win the all Ireland, dubs down to 14 for a period and we looked so meek in actually going for it with true belief and conviction . I’d give leitrim a shout against us if it were an all Ireland final . Maybe it’s time we Stopped loking for logical reasons and faced the truth , we bottled it last week and there is something truly amiss with our mindset on all Ireland final day .
Jh has done a fantastic job making us a constant in latter stages of championship, top side last ten years absolutely no doubt about that but his tactical nous has come into question once again in a final . The psychological side of it ,I’m not sure he can be blamed for that at all, must be the weight of history on the players shoulders .
If ciaran mac is made a scapegoat for arguing his case for sooner substitutions ,that’s just wrong on so many levels , as for the wans on here saying ciaran mac was not all that as a footballer , that just tells ya all you need to know. He didnt score enough on all Ireland final day was one argument, my gawd did you ever see that man spray a pass with the outside of the citog , seriously? Aru football or aru stupid ?
@Craggy boglands, challenging position is not good enough when we are losing finals we should be winning.
I don’t want to be a challenger, I want to be a winner.
We have as many All-Irelands in 2021 as we had in 1951, those are the numbers that matter.
Even when it’s put on a plate for us we are not taking it and what have we learnt since 2012 about game management, absolutely nothing.
Not alone should we have won last Saturday but we should have at least 4 All-Irelands in the last 25 years with the chances we have been given.
We are in this to win All-Irelands and not to be made a constant laughing stock of.
The images on the sideline from last Saturday show you how amateurish our set up is when it comes to giving our team the best chance of success, it was embarrassing and the reality is that any team who face Mayo in a final are absolutely guaranteed to win regardless of who they are.
And that will remain so until we have a complete restructure, but is there enough intelligence to even know the type of changes needed to give us the best chance of success.
If you take the PR side of things alone, it shows you how out of touch we are.
Have we the right age profile at the top of the tree or have we people through no fault of their own have a mindset which is decades behind the times ?
We are not professional enough in every aspect, so in that sense no progress has been made and that is the ingredient which is preventing us from winning All-Irelands.
And anyone who cannot see that, frankly should not be listened to and completely ignored.
Get your house in order first, then success will follow and boy is our house out of order because it is clear there is nobody with the required acumen who understands the fundamentals of how success is achieved.
And success is winning All-Irelands, not being a global laughing stock.
My ambition wouldn’t just be to win an All-Ireland, I’d be disappointed if we didn’t win at least two every decade because I know we at capable of that if we get our house in order.
@Walterwhite, I understand what you are saying but there are a number of key fundamentals you are failing to take into account.
We simply cant analyze a game and come to the conclusion that if we scored this or scored that we would have won the game because we could equally argue that if a goal keeper wasn’t stuck in no mans land that we wouldn’t have conceded two goals or that if McCurry had a different marker on him all during the game that he wouldn’t have scored what he did.
Players will miss chances and goal keepers will make blunders and at that moment in time they are the uncontrollable aspects from a management point of view, however if a sideline fails to act on the controllable aspects of a game then I’m afraid the buck stops there.
And I think there is universal agreement that the sideline failed in that regard.
So my point is that tactics or the lack of are a significant key to winning and losing.
We may hear news soon that Ciaran McDonald has left the set up and James Burke as well.
I know Edwin dissected the game, but i didn’t hear much criticism of management. Are the Mayo News journalists too close to the camp to call out the manager for his failings last Saturday? I will be watching to see do the Mayo News report on the two selectors leaving and asking tough questions.
Goagain – that allegation will, I know, give the Mayo News crew a right chuckle. You’re miles from the truth there. Also there’s no confirmation as yet about any departures.
Sean Burke.. I couldn’t agree more with the mac point. A real legend and I pray he doesn’t depart. On the subs. We could have made so many. Doc. Loftus.ruane. were all not at it. Aos second half too. Losing mac is unthinkable.
@Viper. Of course there are controllables and uncontrollables in a game but saying the uncontrollables are irrelevant is a nonsensical argument. Indeed once the game has started there will be far more uncontrollables than controllables that’s what makes them relevant.
If you were to go along with pebblesmellers argument, the penalty miss was irrelevant because he missed when in fact this was a massive.moment in the game and crucial to the outcome.
Believe me when I say it I am not defending the sideline either. The reality of that defeat is that the fault lies as much with the players as the sideline..That is simply my opinion.
A lot of people on here are complaining about the manager and some of the players. I was talking to an unused substitute yesterday and the subs noticed that the cheering and chanting from the supporters kinda dried up a lot after the penalty miss, which is very sad to say.
The fans cant be to blame Jimbo. JHoran made a similar remark that he was disappointed with lack of vocal support towards end of the 2013 final. We better include the fans in the squad training sessions so that they know when and how loud to shout and acknowledge that unless the fans do their supporting correctly theres no Celtic Crosses for Mayo.
@Walterwhite, I did say I understood where you were coming from and I do, but we cannot say categorically that had we scored the penalty that we would have won the game, it would have been worth 3 points, that’s all we know for certain, the same amount that a Tyrone missed goal chance would have been worth had it been scored.
On the penalty miss, I actually believe that could in some circumstances be put in the controllable basket.
I’m not saying this didn’t happen because I don’t know so I’m purely speculating for the purpose of explaining how a penalty could be a controllable.
Was this situation planned for in detail because if it was there is no coach who would agree that it would be a good idea to try a shimmy on the run up, was any consideration given to the responsibility given to a young player or were any other players considered because I have to say I could see on his body language that he was very nervous looking.
Or was it just decided that because he scored a penalty against Galway that he should just take it and hope for the best. I know these are minute details but those are the details that can often be overlooked.
You must do everything in your power to try and stack the percentages in your favour so if that situation was overlooked, who’s fault was that ?
Ciaran Mcdonald was one the best forward’s Mayo ever had, he proved that several times, if he didn’t score much in a game he gave accurate passes. It’s time to give everyone a break now, James Horan + selectors & the players. The team played very well in the first half but the second half seemed to be panic driven with some players holding on to the ball to long giving Tyrone the few seconds to close them out & winning turnovers repeatedly, also some players taking wrong shot options, always rushing the shots at goal instead of tapping it over the bar. Goals are great when they go in the net but when it goes wrong it looks stupid & Tyrone nearly always broke down the pitch & scored, all these mistakes can be sorted out out the training pitch by very good coaches, Mayo will get it right soon, hopefully 2022 or 23. Let’s see what happens in the next few months.
Viper – you keep going on about making changes at the top of the tree, them having the wrong age profile etc. What does all that mean? If we’re not professional enough off the field then we wouldn’t be competitive at all. The reality is once players and management take to the field on all Ireland final day, it’s on them to perform to their ability. James Horan made some mistakes last weekend and so did the players.
I would agree with @walterwhite in a lot of ways. There were enough chances created to win the game. We should have been a couple of points up at the 2nd half water break and then it’s a completely different game. When we eventually got in front of Galway and Dublin, the games were seen out pretty comfortably. Unfortunately we were behind and management/players lost composure completely towards the end.
There’s a reasoned debate to be had on whether JH is the man who will get us across the line. However, there needs to be a realistic better candidate on the table and I just don’t see it currently.
@Viper A goal is only worth 3 points on the scoreboard but it is worth a hell of a lot to the morale and confidence of the team and it damages the other team. Equally a missed goal / penalty has the opposite impact. A missed penalty followed by the concession of a soft goal is a six point swing and a deadly impact on most teams.
I would be interested to know who you think should have taken the penalty if not Ryan O Donoghue.
Penalties are missed regularly.
Loftus miss was a far easier score. about 80% of the goal was open on front of him from 10 yards out. I actual can’t figure out what exactly he was trying to do.
Also the first goal conceded was extremely poor. McShane jumping basically uncontested.
Unless a team was completely dominant otherwise in the match it would be nearly impossible to recover from the above errors. There was some error on mgt side but in the main the reason for losing is down to the players not being able to execute.
If you miss easy goal chances and concede poor goals then you don’t deserve to win on the day.
@Viper. I didn’t say you didn’t understand , I was talking about another contributer’s argument. Of course if we scored the penalty we can’t categorically say we would have won nor should missing it have condemned us to defeat but it was a huge moment. The point I was trying to make is you cannot dismiss moments like that.
In regard to the result the responsibility lies with both the players and the management. I feel at times in your posts you want to lay it all at James Horan’s door. I am not saying he is not at fault but he cannot be blamed for every individual error that happens on the pitch.
@jimbo, maybe the cheering was quiet from the Mayo supporters as the real hardcore people just couldn’t get tickets.
Did the Mayo Board do the great loyal supporters any favours, not a hope, sold the tickets for big money to Companies.
You should have been beside us at the Dublin game, this was real supporters in action, even in 1st half.
I do agree Centrefield. But the poor execution of these basic skills must have an explanation. If we can never figure that out, how can it be corrected?
And ultimately we had 4 weeks to prepare, surely the management team bear much of the responsibility that the team were just not right for that final last week.
Castlebar was full with development squads today and for the sake of the young men who play for us some day, we need as a county to be able to get it right on All Ireland day. Horan probably needs help on this, its not that people who criticize him and his management team automatically want him out but its bloody obvious he hasnt got the tools to prep the team for AI finals. If he is not open to change in his style then we truly are in a bad place.
I feel that Mayo had no attacking plan and no defensive plan, in any game under Horan. Am I wrong????? If we had either, can someone please put me out of my misery and tell me what they were……
Just for accuracy the free flags being handed out to Tyrone Hill Fans was done by Begley Sports Dungannon.
In Ballina some coffee shop had hired an illegal* replica of Sam so people could pics with it THE WEEK BEFORE. That sort of thing wouldn’t just not happen in Tyrone, it’s likely the person doing it would get a beating/stern warning.
On that matter, a traveller from Cavan(this is what I heard) who set up shop opportunistically (&illegally) selling Hats/flags/headbands got an awful beating for his troubles.
*id just recently found out GAA HQ destroyed one not long ago and there are two officially approved Sam Maguire’s. One in museum and other is cup used for presentations& travelling the country.
@Walterwhite, and you’re perfectly entitled to your opinion and you could be right but when you sit down and think about this logically we know that in world sport, never mind in Ireland that any Mayo team are under immense pressure mentally before the ball is even thrown up in a final, they wouldn’t be human if they weren’t.
So we must factor all this in when assessing how a player performed or not, they do not all have the constitution of Lee Keegan, we must remember that.
This is why no stone should be left unturned when it comes to preparing a Mayo team (including the manager) for a final and I see several unturned stones in this case.
I did say I’m not blaming James Horan or the players, does anyone think that James Horan is not affected by pressure as well or that that pressure may wreak havoc with judgment ?
I would never criticize anyone because their coping mechanisms may differ from the next man, some people thrive under pressure, others may collapse.
I’d say no manager can be under as much pressure as the Mayo manager on All-Ireland final day.
But it is the County Board who are ultimately in charge and if they feel that they have done everything in their power as regards to sending our players to contest a final and have not neglected any aspect which could improve our chances of winning a final then nothing will change.
@diehard, I know what you are saying about what a penalty scored or missed can do, but Mayo have shown in the past that they can claw back deficits, not every team who miss a penalty and concede quickly at the other end go on to lose to a team they really should be beating.
There is also no guarantee that Mayo would have won had they scored the penalty.
Or is that all we have after nearly ten years on the road, that we are solely dependent on momentum ?
I don’t know who should have taken the penalty because I don’t know was any preparation or thought put into the possibility of us getting a penalty but all I can say is that no coach would advise trying a shimmy in an All-Ireland final if it wasn’t the technique the player used all the time.
This is off topic, but just curious what’s happening with seasons tickets next year, I know as of now they’re all sold out, is there any word on extra season tickets being sold next year or if some aren’t renewed will they be put on sale?
Where are all these stories and rumours being started.i think some people have lost the plot since Saturday or else there is more than one brolly in mayo.
Great to have club games back that’s where my focus will be for now.
Thanks Willie Joe and keep well.
And as a final word could all those ‘advertising boards’ along our roads wishing Mayo well in the final, be taken down asap. I’m sick looking at them and I’m sure the players could do with a break.
@mayo88 The “hardcore” supporters were out in force this weekend at every level and every grade. The “hardcore” supporters were coaching U10’s, lining pitches, stewarding gates, reffing games and lacing up boots this weekend. I’ve a feeling that we’ve different definitions of “hardcore”.
@our time has come, that’s nonsense that McDonald carried us to two finals and does a disservice to other excellent players we had in that period.
The revisionism that’s gone on in recent years is quite something, especially when you consider the flak he took when he was actually playing. Not unlike AOS back then he was the blame guy, especially during games when risky passes or shots would go wrong, and plenty asked whether he should be dropped after a poor game. Now that was patently nonsense and underserved.
On the flip side, some have built him up since into a demi god. He certainly had some god like moments, but for every silky pass or score that burns bright in the memory, there’s another that went astray and gave cheap possession away at a time when keeping possession was gaining much more importance in the game.
McDonald won 1 all star, in 04. He was actually quite lucky to get that one and perhaps unlucky in 06. Either way none of us were jumping in outrage at the time and it was a fair return. He didn’t get motm in any of those games. There’s an argument that James Nallen and Alan Dillon were more effective players for us in that period, despite mac having the highlight reel
@Wide Ball, off course we do a lot of things right but there are a number of things we simply did not do specifically in the two weeks running up to the final which would have helped.
I’m not going to go into what those things were on here though.
I don’t want us going to Croke Park to compete, I want us going there to win but we must realize that Mayo at this stage are going there with much heavier legs and minds than any other team and I’m not sure the people at the top of the tree realize this, that Mayo must do much more in their preparation than any other team, we have higher hurdles to jump.
At this stage it’s incalculable what Mayo winning an All-Ireland would do for every aspect of Mayo life, never mind what it would do for football in the county and of course the finances of Mayo GAA but we must do things differently to achieve that goal, it will have a financial cost of course but will ultimately prove a good investment.
Why is there 41 players on the Mayo senior football panel?
I thought the GAA brought in a limit to this a couple of years back.
Is the players from 32-41 not better off with their clubs?
Evidently Bingamstown. These super superior class who think themselves as the real hardcore supporters. The Muigheo season ticket holders. In their opinion without them Mayo Gaa would cease to exist. I had the misfortune of being in the company of one on All Ireland final day in Dublin. When asked what grade their club played in. She replied no idea I don’t do club.
Is Andy taking the Longford job? Wouldn’t he be much more use to Mayo GAA by being involved with an underage team? Like what Mickey Harte did in Tyrone?
Our underage results over the past decade have been way below where they ought to be and we need guys like Andy on board, not over in Longford or any place else. Same goes for Roch. Wasted in donegal. Moffatt, who surely knows him very well, should be encouraging him to get on board with underage and bring guys thru. The likelihood is that Andy and Roch will both manage Mayo seniors again. Their chances of success would very likely be enhanced if they knew the guys they were working with, what talents out there etc.
@onemoreyear exactly. The type of fan who cheers while a free looks on target in the air when everyone who’s ever kicked a ball knows it’s curling wide. Theyll go to every Mayo match in a year yet probably didn’t even watch the Kerry Tyrone semi. Thats not football fans, that’s fans of the “mayo show” but in their heads they’re the diehards because they have a season ticket and go to league games despite probably not knowing who David Clifford is. I tend to avoid the stand unless it’s lashing these days to avoid the nonsensical shouts of these types
Stephenite Agree with your last two posts . Also Fans suggesting different players who they defiantly have not seen play a game recently. Some fans keep suggesting players who should be on the panel. Some are basing their view because a player was good at underage, or they were very good in the last few club games but not taking into account who they were marking if they were defenders or who was marking them if they are a forward., Some of their suggestions are not even making their club teams . I could go on but it is unreal the number of fans who think they know more than the people who manage the team and the players who play for the county.
We lost…again. But it is hard to read lots of the harshness on here the last few days…
“It’s not just a county…it’s our home
It’s not just a kit…it’s our colours
We’re not just fifteen…we’re thousands
We’re not just a crowd…we’re a family
It’s not just 70 minutes…it’s a lifetime
It’s not passion…it’s emotion
It’s not just a game…it’s our life”
How has this debate drifted into the realms of who done this or who done this or that that in previous All Ireland finals.. and All Stars, One thing is absolutely certain that McDonald never craved the limelight,.. All Stars, ??? Is that the template of those who’s opinion is relavent??? A very dubious concept, everyone is entitled to their own opinion ..Kevin McLoughlin, or Donal Vaughan have none, .. Shane Walsh, and if anyone can tell me if a better player in Ireland in 2021, I would be interested in hearing exactly who? Well Shane Walsh won’t have one either, neither will Stephen Coen , a few Mayo player’s will get All Stars in 2021, All Stars are picked by journalists, some players court the media and some shun them… And while I’m certain he deserves an All Star, David Clifford was going to get one from the outset of this year because the Yerra media mafia said so regardless, even if Kerry only beat hurling counties, which is all they done, .. David Clifford , was actually held scoreless in a game v Cork, where Kerry won by 22 points…McDonald actually didn’t win any All Star in 2006,.. but he did win GPA player of the year in 2006, before it became the GPS All Stars.. The All Stars have as much relavance as the Eurovision in deciding good music.. They will get about 10 or 22 right and the rest are dubious in the extreme, it helps to be a media darling!
Not disagreeing with anything you say there Louisburgh exile. But at the end of the day, every supporter of any team is looking for success too. We have had great days following Mayo but we need an All Ireland. Can you imagine the lift it would have given the county had the result gone our way a week ago. We’d be on cloud nine, instead we’re dissecting where it all went wrong….again! We all love our county but we’re scarred from all these losses now I believe. What’s the first thing that’s said to a Mayo person when they say what county they’re from? The beautiful scenery, the great people, no 90% of the time its the final losses. “Ah poor aul Mayo, yel win one yet someday” its ingrained in our consciousness now whether we like it or not and until we win one. That’s the way it’s going to be.
Is there a chance you can get an interview with James Horan…..it would be interesting to hear his thoughts
Is it not OK to be a loyal County supporter but not a loyal club supporter, many Gaa clubs tend to be too clannish and same players were always picked even with little ability, a bit like some Mayo Secondary Schools back in my day, mid to late 1980’s.
Mayo must keep Andy Moran as under 17/ 20 manager , with a view to future Senior Manager.
The “debate” on here about different type of supporters has just turned weird .
Some people live up the country so can’t commit to local Mayo club but still follow the county team around the country. Nothing wrong with that .
Other people live in their local parish and give so much to the club that they don’t have time to go to all the county matches as they have juvenile matches at weekends etc. also nothing wrong with that .
What was/is wrong is the ticket distribution system .
Let’s not turn on each other !
I’d be even more concerned about the future of Mayo football if supporters didn’t feel the need to vent after Saturdays loss. Especially the manner of the loss.
100% km79, it’s becoming unsettling . Bit of togetherness wouldnt go astray at all , all want the same thing in the end . I’m just still in shock that some are trying to discredit ciaran macs genius , that’s just as strange but everyone is entitled to their opinion but that’s plain odd, questioning his contribution in the run up to finals in 04 and 06 , he was magic in connacht, particularly remember him turning it on in 06 after we got off to a slow start v Galway. He was instrumental to victory v offally in 97 . Galway only won the all Ireland in 98 cause one of his shots on goal came off the woodwork, he bagged two that day . Even coming off the bench in 99 in tuam ,he was sublime, a magician imo , hard to fathom why people want to discredit his playing days as ordinary, he simply wasnt ,he was extraordinary. We lost to Galway in castlebar in 2008 and most would say it was disgraceful he was left out that year .
@km79 well said. We must be nearly all vented out now. We’ve all got the lash…the players ,the manager, the selectors ,the different tiers of supporters, the pundits,the ex players even the banner erectors so it’s time we tore back into each other at club matches and move on….till next February.
At the end of the day it doesn’t matter who is managing a team..God himself cannot legislate for the simple misses we had. We have to move on. Start all the nearly men from the squad in the national league and find out if they are proper inter County standard. Give 10 regular s a break
I don’t think it’s about discrediting Ciaran, no way. We’re just trying to contextualise our final performances through the decades and to try to get to the bottom of why good, great players continue to underperform. Ciaran is the most gifted forward Mayo ever produced. But in ’04, 06 to be fair it was a collective collapse so I’ll correct my point there. Its not about taking cheap shots at players.
However, in both those years we had Dillon, Mort and Ciaran, you could argue some of Mayo’s best ever forwards. But still there was a collapse. Its food for thought at the very least.
We’ll said km79.
It’s gone a bit strange around here with some of the stuff being posted.
I’ve avoided everywhere online since the match except here,it was great to vent and debate with fellow fans.
However the questioning of who is actually a fan and mad shit like Ciaran Mc wasn’t a good forward etc is both sad and frustrating to see.
I’m out for the next while.
In that sense , yes , I’d happen to agree on that , it has to come back to the weight of history on their shoulders . Theres no way on God’s earth it can keep happening without some kind of thought process into asking why we cant get players to perform to their ability on final day . The last show was terrible and again it’s not as if these players have not got the capability . We keep saying things like, we just didnt perform on the day , beaten by a better team , do we really believe all that at this stage . We beat kerry in 96 semi final ,then lost in 97 final , we beat cork in 11 , we beat Dublin kn 12 , we beat donegal in 13 etc etc , it’s just not right , there is a trend here why cant we put in that winning performance in a final . The lack of composure the last day was there for all to see ,tommy Conroy’s goal chance ,looking at it last night I’m convinced he could of gone another yard or two and opened up the whole goal to shoot into . Its like we dont truly believe we can put our stamp on it.
Still the guts of a great side to challange again next year on paper . I’d love to see oisin into midfield with mattie .
Forward division of , Cillian , tommy conroy , ROD, james carr, fionn mcdonagh , jordon flynn , (understand that wont sit well with a lot , but that’s the way I see it )
A few things to ponder going into the winter:
1. Why was a fully fit Colm Boyle left like a junk yard dog on a leash in the championship and never used once apart from the Leitrim game?
2. Why was a player who had spent 5 days in hospital with a knee infection only a week before the All Ireland brought on ahead of him?
3. Why are we continuing to put square pegs in round holes? Wing backs in full back, forwards in midfield and midfielders in forwards.
4. Do we think “Horan ball” will win us an All Ireland?
5. If no, then do we think James Horan will play any other system?
6. If no, then who do we think James Horan should continue as manager?
7. If no, then who is a suitable replacement?
8. Do we go outside the county for a big ticket name or someone within the county?
Plenty of questions for us all, solutions maybe harder to come by.
Very much agree that Colm Boyle should have been used much more. We hear so much about Aidan O’Shea not scoring but isn’t it quite obvious that he has a faulty kicking technique – all his shots veer off to the left, possibly due to unintentional outside of the foot contact. This fault may be ingrained at his age but one immediate solution would be for him to aim further to his right, just as free takers do to counteract a breeze coming from the right. Kevin McLoughlin has an accurate left boot and is a teacher – surely he could give his team mate some tips?
Leantimes – I’ve deleted that comment you posted, at 1.54am, as it was clearly in the breach of the rule about playing the person rather than the ball.
Let Andy Moran off to learn his trade with some other county. Who would want to manage Mayo considering the abuse that goes with it. We have no idea what goes on in the camp. If selectors leave why always blame the manager. 2 AI finals in transition is some achievement, does any blame go to our players?
I suppose we tried to play the same style that saw us beat Galway and then Dublin.
Two great wins and we were all happy at that stage. A Connacht, and the six times champions dethroned. We were on the march.
I think James Horan thought that our game plan didn’t need tweaking or changing and another repeat of the Galway and Dublin performance would see us past Tyrone.
In the cold light of day, our game plan would have seen us past Tyrone if we had our shooting boots on. If we had taken half the chances we sent wide we would have triumphed.
Sadly on the day we missed chance after chance and suddenly the style of play which we were all happy with up to the AI final and which saw us win Connacht and beat Dublin was deemed ” not fit for purpose “. We were all experts after the final and would have played a different game.
Even given the template of how the Kerry Tyrone semi final played out, I don’t think a major change to our playing style would be possible to implement in a matter of a couple of weeks.
The fact of the matter is, if we had taken our chances or a percentage of them we would have won and the game plan would have been hailed for bringing us glory.
The game plan did get us in a position to win the game but the finishing let is down.
We could have implemented a different strategy I suppose, but regardless of what strategy is taken the ball still has to go over the bar.
It was the over the bar bit that ran us aground.
Top class forwards are a rare commodity but we need to add another two that could be relied on for 3 or 4 points a game.
“if we had scored all our chances we would have won the game”…
That take is just far too simplistic and forgiving in my opinion, we have been saying that for the last 2 decades now, as if missed chances are just pure bad luck and virtuos. Its down to inadequate skill levels and execution, simple as that
I didn’t say of we took all all our chances. I said if we took even half our chances.
Yes it is down to skill level, which is why I also said that we need to find two more forwards we can rely on to take 3 or 4 points a game
We need to be circumspect here. This team has not bedded down yet. Rarely the same players every game. long breaks do not suit us. Also the performance over 6 games is what we need to judge and lets face it, getting to an All Ireland was bonus territory. We’ve seen it all before with shot selection and lack of finishing. I would have to question if they are coached so well why are they doing that? I do a different line of sport and non performances are taken seriously and a big deal from the physical reasons to the mental ones. I have seen instructors get reports on themselves that are less than flattering when guys dont perform and changes are made to address the shortcomings and unfortunately some guys are let go because they just cant deal with pressure. A fact of life. I think if we got clear answers from management and county board as to what went wrong it would stop the conjecture. We are very forgiving supporters – we are entitled to be annoyed – but our support goes on. Maybe a bit of respect towards us as fans would not go amiss. A team is bigger than one person and not listening to solid advice from those who are supposed to be on your management team is probably why fans are so dismayed.
Good points folks.
I dunno, perhaps this team just wasn’t ready. It hurts to even say that because I truly feel we could have won on the day with some to spare, and our players are every bit as good as Tyrone’s, if not better.
And that’s a good point Rev, our style did put us in a position to win. Can’t blame James for all the misses. The right players were in the right places at the right times, time after time after time, ie Conor, Tommy, Bryan Walsh, Ryan, ie, the guys Horan has in there to SCORE. We couldn’t have hoped for better luck in this regard.
But… it was well flagged before the match that we had no HF line. It was completely unsettled and no guarantees who’d even start. That’s a bad position to be in coming into the final. So, that’s a good starting point to try and fix. This was nothing to do with nerves or the weight of history etc, rather it just may mean that further development/ time is needed.
I think we could go about this by obviously bringing in a couple of new players, and/or shuffling the team that’s there, ie Tommy to centre forward and Ryan playing deeper. Obviously the big problem then is to find a couple of inside forwards (no bother, eh?!). Personally I’d rather have a better HF line than FF line. Otherwise no ball will go in. But I do understand that the two go hand-in-hand. It’s not so simple.
All fair points liberal role in the tie but I disagree when you say “it had nothing to do with weight of history or nerves etc” – we can’t possibly say that as we don’t know. I remember maybe 7 or 8 years ago reports of a prominent panel member saying they don’t believe in sports psychology. Just because you don’t believe you have a mental weakness, doesn’t mean you don’t have one. Let’s learn from Limerick here – leave no stone unturned in our pursuit of glory. Get a top sports psychologist in the team – it could well be worth a few points on all Ireland day and I believe would certainly make us more consistent in games- something we definitely are not, we rely on purple patches to pull us through instead of having a system and process that every player and coach knows their role inside out. We definitely would be no worse off with a good sports psychologist so I don’t see why people wouldn’t want this?
@our time has come, I meant our lack of a settled HF line, ie not knowing our best 3, has nothing to do with the weight of history or nerves. This is a possible skill capability issue.
I.e. something tangible that can be fixed
Look, if Eoghan and Cillian were both fit for the final we probably wouldn’t be having this conversation, ie our HF line would be stronger. As Oisin mcconville said afterwards, when they won in ’02 they hadn’t as much as a single niggle that year. We’re so unlucky in this regard. It’s still not an excuse for our loss Saturday but yet its another regretful aspect. Tiny margins etc
The neighbours Club Rossies leading the way again with fundraising with a big raffle. The Roscommon County Board covering the cost of the prizes and 100% of funds raised go to the clubs! On top of course of the raffling house in Dublin and apartment in London. Well done them.
Who exactly is trying to say Mac wasn’t a good forward? Somebody said he ‘carried’ us to finals in 04 and 06. It was pointed out that he didn’t win motm in any of the games he supposedly carried us, or didn’t win an all star in one of those years. How does it make you a better mayo fan to big up MCD’s achievements to the point of denegrading others contribution such as Alan Dillon?. Indeed Conor Mort who actually did ‘carry’ us scoring wise for a while is a great example. Seems like it’s blasphemy to say anything against mac but Mort will never get an ounce of credit for the rest of time.
We all love Mac. Everyone loves talent and he was as talented as anyone that’s taken a football field since a young Maurice Fitz. However we build him up to be as good as a Cooper or Joyce or Canavan when he simply wasn’t. Plenty used to (stupidly) call for him to be dropped back because he gave the ball away too much. Now it’s gone the other direction. To use a soccer example, everyone prefers to remember a talented god like Bergkamp over someone like Lampard despite Lampard pissing all over Bergkamp in goals and assists in his career, from midfield.
Good examples now would be Jamie Clarke and Shane Walsh. Natural talent and amazing classy moments coming out their ears but realistically nobody would take them over Con o Callaghan or Ciaran Kilkenny. We can remember the wonderful moments mac gave us without pretending that he carried us
I’d be surprised if something isn’t in place there regarding a Sports Psychologist. Stephen Rochford brought in Niamh Fitzpatrick in 2017 and that certainly worked, so I’d hope something similar is in place now.
Niamh Fiyzpatrick did a brilliant piece in the Irish Times some time ago about working with the Mayo squad in 2017. Bring her Back!!