I haven’t done the morning-after-the-day-before round-up of coverage for ages – the Galway match back in June was the last time – due to a combination of logistical, connectivity and time-related issues. But yesterday was an All-Ireland semi-final, we’re back at base after our summer’s gallivanting and there’s plenty to read about us today. Ready for it? Okay, here goes.
Let’s start, as usual, with the locals. There are match reports in the Mayo Advertiser and Connaught Telegraph.
Onto the nationals, where there’s oodles of stuff. The best way is do them paper-by-paper.
Irish Times (paywall) – match report, analysis by Malachy Clerkin on the Aidan O’Shea/Kieran Donaghy match-up. Malachy doesn’t spare the timber in this one.
Irish Independent – match report, Eamonn Sweeney’s lambasting of Stephen Rochford, Dick Clerkin’s defence of the manager, match analysis by Colm Keys and Vincent Hogan.
Irish Examiner – match report, John Fogarty on our many different rabbit-out-of-the-hat tactical gambits in recent years, post-match quotes from Eamonn Fitzmaurice.
Others: Irish Mirror (live blog, match report), Irish Sun, Irish News, The 42 (match report, analysis by Johnny Doyle), Hogan Stand, Sky.
GAA website – match report (includes video highlights), post-match quotes from Stephen Rochford and Eamonn Fitzmaurice.
RTÉ – match report, quotes from Stephen Rochford, Eamonn Fitzmaurice and Kieran Donaghy, analysis on Kerry’s weaknesses at the back (culled from Ciaran Whelan’s analysis on The Sunday Game last night).
Photos: Mayo Mick, Inpho, Sportsfile.
That’ll do for now, I reckon. As normal, I’ll gather up all the match reports and file them away in the results archive in due course.
But don’t spend all your time looking back. The GAA season ticket email was in my inbox at 10.09 this morning and the next job I need to do now is sort out tickets for Saturday. As you need to as well. We outnumbered the opposition at Croke Park yesterday by around 5:1 and we’ll need to do the same next week too. As Rochy said in those quotes above, we’re still in this and the lads will need us all there again on Saturday. UPDATE: Full details on ticketing for the replay are here.
Watch out for the next edition of the Mayo News podcast, which will be out this afternoon and captures all the action from Croke Park yesterday. The Man of the Match poll is still open as well but Andy’s already in the winner’s enclosure on that one by the looks of it. Sure keep voting anyway and I’ll announce the result later on tonight.
By the way, I’ve been thinking about changing the voting system for the MOTM polls. As things stand, voting can be fierce tippy, i.e. huge support for one player (Andy, in the case of yesterday’s game) with less recognition to others who put in big shifts. I’m wondering if the poll allowed voters to pick their three best performers (which wouldn’t be ranked – the poll thingy doesn’t do this) instead of just one, would this provide a better spread and maybe give more prominence to the supporting cast? What do you reckon? All views on this welcome.
Want to provide more support for the lads? There’s a jackpot of €15,300 and stand tickets for the All-Ireland hurling final up for grabs in tonight’s draw on the Mayo GAA Players Welfare Lotto. Play the Lotto here.
97 thoughts on “Monday match reports”
I think selecting your top 3 players for a MOTM poll would be a great idea.
Andy was clearly head and shoulders, what wish scoring 1-5, but Jason Doc was immense and deserved a good shout out. He usually gets overlooked but by god he owned his place and his Jersey yesterday.
I like the idea of top 3 performers Willie Joe. It also would give very interesting statistics across a season. Seeing how often players featured in the top 3 performers. There is a bit of voter bias also where 2 or 3 early posts for a player can sway the balance towards them.
Go for it WJ – a top 3.
top three is a class idea Willie Joe,good to look at over the course of the year, from a stats point of view,
im not for a second suggesting andy doesn’t deserve the height of praise,he most certainly does,he was outstanding,but adding more to our mom polls is mighty
fair play wj- how you manage to keep things fresh and interesting here all the time,
you yourself should be getting awards,left right and centre- your contributions to mayo gaa is just top drawer
God, absolutely drained after yesterday.
A few thoughts.
Rochford and co. got a lot right. Yes, the Aidan stint at full back needs revising but the kicking game which he worked on all spring served them well yesterday. The Aidan thing stopped the aerial threat but Donaghy isn’t as one dimensional as people think. Vaughan probably needs to be looked at there for next Saturday.
Kerry are not the team they think they are. That full back line have been roasted several times before and they don’t have ready made replacements there. They’ll probably drop defenders back more to give them more cover the next day but you’d surely imagine you’ll see more of Mayo’s running game as a result. They also were lacking in the half forward line yesterday without Walsh.
Mayo need to change very little for the next day. Sort out the full back thing and possibly get Durcan on from the start. I’d love clarification on the Boyle thing. John Casey mentioned before about issues with hamstrings. I’m presuming that was the reason yesterday for his withdrawal because it simply doesn’t make sense otherwise. Boyle was terrific yesterday.
Our track record in these replays are shocking but Christ, our luck is surely due to change in them at some stage?!
I have to say I thought Deegan, who is far from my favourite ref, did ok yesterday. The conditions were treacherous and he could have a complete balls of the game but I thought he got a lot right. He didn’t get everything right but that’s an impossibility in such an intense game. I found it amusing to come on here and see the giving out about him and then to go onto other blogs (The42 etc.) and see Kerry fans giving out yards about him too.
That article in the Independent is a disgrace by Eamonn Sweeney. Rochford didn’t get everything right yesterday but he got an awful lot more right than he did wrong.
I’m looking forward to the replay but we are definitely going to need a little bit of luck along the way. Whichever team gets that will win the next day.
Finally, I think that’s a good idea, Willie Joe. Shortlisting players as well might not be the worst idea either, we will respect your opinion on who was worthy of being shortlisted!
Over 1,000 votes and not a single one for Lee Keegan. Saturday will have to be different and we have to get him into the game.
Who is this Eamonn Sweeney? Is it a man or a woman? Anyway it sounds like the type of person you wouldn’t want to get stuck in a lift with for a few hours along with Martin Breheny and Who ate all the cakes. No, you would not want to be stuck in a confined space with them 3.
Football neutrals here in Meath thought the Ref rode us. Forget about the media–roll on sat. Will kerry start Clifford ?
My top three on both sides would have been:
Mayo – Andy Moran, Jason Doherty, Donie Vaughan. (Close calls Tom Parsons, Cillian OConnor he was better than given credit.)
Kerry – David Moran, Paul Geaney, Stephen OBrien (Close calls Kieran Donaghy, Paul Murphy and Peter Crowley)
Go for it WJ – a top 3.
Just a further bit on that disgraceful Eamonn Sweeney piece (which I only linked as there was an equal counterpoint piece in the same paper, from Dick Clerkin), courtesy of Edwin McGreal in the Mayo News – here. I know that consistency and punditry don’t go hand-in-hand but still …
Great idea…. Keith Higgins Parsons and a few more had fantastic games and deserve to be better reflected in the poll.
I went through the comments and cannot believe the amount of people who posted that AOS got the better of donaghy.
Donaghy played fuck ! he had a hand in nearly every score.
We are a way better team than Kerry , I hope our management figure out a way to show that next week.
I would be up for a top 3 WJ , doherty deserves recognition for an amazing shift yesterday even though andy was undoubtedly MOTM.
Have you a top three at the moment all be it a straight vote? It seems rather harsh to me to single out more than one player. The way Mayo play at the moment it’s an absolute team effort.
One statistic from yesterday, Kerry used six subs giving them a total of 155 minutes game time. We used 4 with game time of 55. Indicator of how our panel has developed over the year in the eyes of management. We are what we are a quality outfit who are living their dream and we can only br might proud of them. We have never seen their likes in green and red.
The question remains how to cope with Donaghy. Kerry we’re very quick to change tack yesterday – outfielded once they moved on to their plan B for the crafty Donaghy.
Go for the top 3 idea.
Sweeney’s piece is disgraceful. Imagine the reaction if he targeted Gavin, Fitzmaurice or Harte that way. Just because he feels digs at Mayo are allowed.
forward subs a big problem brought on drake and coen, two defenders. Had Boland and Regan off the 26 . Kerry subs made a big impact, ours did not.
Clifford is class alright! Looks able for senior. Kerry have too many good attackers, one or two will always have a strong day. Yesterday it was O’Brien, Geaney and I thought overall Donaghey ‘beat his man’ as they say.
Mayo need to be more disciplined at the back next Saturday. Too many frees conceded whereas Kerry despite their shortcomings in defence (where they’ll be much more compact next sat) gave away very few frees.
Hopefully Keegan and McLoughlin have stronger impacts on proceedings. We need them to.
Top 3 a fairer reflection on a game, any chance of a page 3 as well Willie Joe while you have the kettle on! So, the madness continues, Murphy does a Lee Keegan on Leroy, Aidan looked like a lost soul at 3, don’t know why Clifford is not on the Kerry senior panel also, don’t know why Loftus and Nally are ignored for so long. Anyway we shall sharpen our arrows to aim at the green and gold on Saturday. No wilting, no surrender.
I get that it’s a team effort, OnTheDitch, and some people, I accept, don’t like the MOTM idea at all but my intention is actually to give more recognition to those who play important supporting roles. As things stand one player will normally get close to or in excess of half of the vote (Aidan 70% for Derry match, Aidan 45% v Clare, Cillian 53% v Cork, Lee 76% v Roscommon, Keith 48% v Roscommon replay) so it’s a way of seeing who the majority of voters thought also did well, aside from the top performer. I mentioned the suggestion to Rob Murphy last night and he said it’s a bit like moving to PR rather than first past the post, which I think is true. Only without the interminable counts!
Ticketing details have just been confirmed for the replay, full details are here.
We need Aidan further forward the next day. If it’s a straight swap, I’d say that we should put Parsons on Donaghy. Otherwise, give the job to someone like Nally or Coen. Both are big lads with experience of defending. The only thing is that Donie might be the fall guy for that move.
What an absolute piece of nonsensical drivel by Sweeney. And I’m generally a huge fan of his pieces
A model in composing lazy analysis.
WJ while sweeneys language is harsh you have to agree with him slightly in the sense that this group of players are and were more than capable of winning an all Ireland but have been let down by decisions by the previous and current management teams and I include the previous 2 in that. Next week will come down to how we set up so let’s hope the management team get it right. Only for clarke wed have lost yday but one or two of his kickouts went astray…does that warrant changing him like last year? Let’s hope no more mad calls are made next Sat
I don’t recall anyone posting that Aidan beat Donaghy (open to correction). Donaghy is a damage limitation exercise and much of this supposed 2-4 contribution has been debunked.
David Clifford would get thrown around like a rag doll if he was in at senior. Only Caolan Mooney, Paddy McBrearty, Pearce Hanley and Ciaran the minor from Louth were physically strong enough at minor.
David Clifford will be a brilliant senior possibly next year or the year after. I am aware of how tall Clifford is but he has no chunk to him at all if we are talking senior. A guy like Brendan Harrison would boss him from first minute to last.
Do people actually fact check what they post in particular to the size of players? The heights of players are easily available online. I keep having to actually point out all the 5’10” – 6″ that are too short to mark Donaghy.
Don’t know why there are complaints about Sweeney. He is spot on.
I think eamon sweeney’s headline in the indo is a disgrace.
If he said that about a woman doing her job he’d be out of a job himself already.
To discuss a managers performance is no problem but to stoop so low and personally insult the mayo management is ignorant / disgusting / cheap / cowardly / immoral / stupid.
If the independant think it’s okay to allow their reporters to personally assassinate and insult an individual or management team then they should be truly ashamed of themselves.
By the way WJ the new voting system sounds good. Go for it
But PK he can’t have it both ways. Last December he was blaming the players, now he’s blaming the management. He needs to decide which it is. Plus his tone is completely out of order. Contrast his nasty, put-down style to Malachy Clerkin’s piece over in the Irish Times. He doesn’t spare Rochy either but you can’t fault the way he language he uses in doing it.
Kerry will change their tactics and so will we. Insantity is trying the same thing over again and expecting a different outcome.
David Clifford is a strong possibility in my mind for Kerry and if he starts/ comes on, somebody needs to hammer him into next week with an almighty shoulder- welcome to senior intercounty boy
This is all evidence of the proplem we have these days with modern GAA analysis. It requires and open mind and a willingness to engage your brain in thinking more than just a few social media headlines.
Conor McGregor will not land a punch and all such other social media lead garbage non-info.
Look beyond the headlines and use your own thinking.
“Aidan Oshea is not a full back”. That is not a statement of anything other than peoples own in ability to look beyond the obvious.
We heard for five years “Lee Keegan is not a midfielders”. What I and others had seen with Westport and by simply using our brain to look at the attributes of the player and the weaknesses in our team, we could never get a decent debate about that.
“Keith Higgins is our best corner back end of”, another potentially good debate shot down with laziness.Then after the Roscommon game a chorus of “We need to free up Higgins”.
Use your own thinking and originality results in much more enjoyable debate.
Rerun that game again yesterday with a different ref and lady luck having another repetition and the most probably outcome is Mayo winning. In my estimateion 7/8 times out of 10.
Donaghy needs marking on two counts, aerial and ground. parsons would do the aerial and woul have a good shot at generally as he is good man to turnover. Bit of the jack Charlton thinking required when he does get possession put him under pressure
Clifford well capable of playing a physical game don’t kid ourselves on that one, but he’s not a fix for Kerry backs..more Jackie Charlton philosophy on those boys is our Trump card
I disagree on David Clifford. He is brilliant but he is 17 years of age and a lanky 6’3″ and slim. The first proper shoulder would pop his AC joint and he’s not quick enough (yet) to get open from a modern senior player. Run Boyler into him in a yellow card hit and he’d be stretchered off.
You look at Kevin McLoughlin and think well isn’t he slim also. Yes, but he has the strength of a fully mature man.
Only muscular chunky minors have any chance of competing in senior these days.
If we contain Donaghy we will win. Donaghy has a football brain that is impressive. For the first goal he went out to the nearly the forty five. Aidan was left inside on his own. When Donaghy collected the ball the whole forward line (which had moved out also) moved in with him. O’shea was left with three or more forwards bearing down on him and Donaghy with options to his right and left. The goal was inevitable. I could see Donaghy looking up with expectation of his full forward line coming in with him.Was this a practiced movement. Almost a reverse of the off side trap used in soccer. Clever? Donaghy has pace also and knows how to kick a point. Put someone on him that will just stick to him like a rash. Put him off. Challenge him. Fall on him. Someone strong enough to harass him to death. Stick in a foot. Poke in an arm. Accidentally dive on top of him. Annoy him with your persistent presence. Who can do that. Stick to him like shite to a blanket.
There is no doubt that Kerry are the aristocratic strategists of football craft. Am I reading too much into this. I hope I am. Because the most dangerous opponent we face is on the sideline.
We can only outfox Fitzmaurice by playing to our own strengths in the first instance while by all means counteracting their strengths. Putting Aidan O’Shea in full back is not playing to our strengths. Play him centre field and put Donnie on Donaghy. Take off Seamus. And Kevin, while he is a fantastic talent, needs to put over a few points. Good idea Willie Joe to have a triumvirate of Men of the Match.
Kerry’s man of the match…….Fitzmaurice.
@WJ I agree the language and headline is harsh and nasty in ways but that’s what the rag the indo wants. This group of players deserve an All Ireland; they’re doing their job so the sideline needs to do theirs. As I’ve said they seem to have subs pre planned instead of seeing whats going on in the game and make bizarre calls sometimes and start players not in form in my opinon. The timing of the subs is also bizarre. Out last 3 sets of management teams have rarely if ever made a proper tactical sub in the 1st half whereas Jim garvin and fitzmaurice are able to.
Now whether we like it or not we’re not liked because we’re somewhat successful and physical and bitter people particularly some of the bandwagon dubs and surprisingly galway and ros want to see us fail. They disliked us before the players chose that holmes and connelly were not the men for the job and this has just given apes around the country fuel. They only way we can be content and shut these apes up is to win the All Ireland. If we don’t I and any hardcore mayo fan will be proud of this team. But the management need to stop making it harder on the lads. Rant over. Roll on Saturday
Fitzmaurice has a lot of decisions to make in terms of his starting 15.
– Shane Enright?
– Mark Griffin or Jonathan Lyne
– Anthony Maher or Jack Barry (I think he will go with Barry)
– Mike Geaney (fit?)
– Donnacha Walsh (fit?)
– James ODonogue or Jack Savage
I thought when you had a blood injury that you had to go off for treatment….how come David Moran was allowed to stay on and not be replaced by a blood sub even after the bandage went on before half time there was still blood coming out…..
OMG, being queuing nearly an hour on tickets.ie…. hope I don’t end up with crap seats after all this!!
Sorry but the AOS ploy backfired really badly I thought. I was horrified when I saw it happening.
It was just not right. I think it was a much bigger blunder than the Hennelly one last year.
Donaghy went virtually unmarked the entire game and kept Kerry in it. AOS totally at sea.
Meanwhile we lost the power of AOS out the pitch.
The mgmt have Durcan to thank for saving their bacon.
The only reasonably fit seems to be Vaughan based on yesterday. You need a combination of height
and athleticism to mark him(as bets you can), not just an AOS, SOS or B Moran.
We got out of Jail on that one. Our luck might be turning.
Jim galvin has a mike and earphones. He is both talking to people and getting advice all the time. He has eyes
and ears at various vantage points. He also makes positional changes `on the hoof` as the need arises.
I have to say we indeed are a bit behind the curve in this regard.
People must remember that SR and his management team are not getting paid – they are giving up all their free time to the Mayo team. We are all great managers in the stand. If he plays Donie full back or Seamus the next day and Donaghy creates goals through high balls into the square – what will people say then. As a Mayo person I take great exception to our manager been called a donkey – especially by an ass who is making a living off people like SR. I hope the players are also similarly disgusted – as John o Mahony said – there is only one f***** answer to that.
Its agreed that the AOS Donaghy thingy didnt work out as we were robbing peter to pay paul but all the suggestions ive seen so far continue in this same vain of robbing peter to pay paul. We need Vaughan and Tom P and SOS in the places they played yesterday as to put any of them back in to full back really weakens us as an overall unit. Shitty ref and weather was forecast so AOS was never going to get a fair call and I can understand the decision Rochford made but he should have changed it but I think he’s get to much grief for making the call in the first place. Aside from Caff the only suggestion Ive seen outside of the starting 15 is Nally but who are you going to drop. Personally I think Vaughan at full back would be a really bad call.
It’s not as easy as you might think to get accurate information on player heights online.
Look at these 2 examples for Colm Boyle:
Considering the entertainment yesterday’s match provided Nationwide, the catchphrase ‘cant finish the job’ is a very negative summing up of Mayo’s contribution to the game of the season to date. A man with a chip on his shoulder or a hidden agenda. Good luck to him but it should only serve to strengthen our resolve to bury that tag. Maybe a mention of our record in replays might be more fitting
All I have to say is to agree that placing A O Shea at FB was the most stupid decision that I have witnessed in a long time apart from last years fiasco with David Clarke and again taking off Colm Boyle with 20 minutes to go.
He made a complete scapegoat of our best player, in the last few games, asking him to do the impossible.
Does he not know that playing FB is a specialised role , and asking Aidan to curb one of the best ffs in the game was unfair to him, particularly when he could be causing destruction at the other end of the field.
Rochford should take a leaf out of Fitz Maurice’s book, who made his first call on 20 mins. and subbed 2 more at H Time . We have known talent on the bench like Loftus Nally Coen and Duncan, but it is not much expecting them to perform with 4 mins to go.
If we lost that game yesterday it would have been his fault because the players on the pitch gave it their all, I would give him a rating of 3 out of 10.
Paddy Durcan has to start the next day and I would consider dropping Seamus O Shea for Lee Keegan at CF. Seamus would be better coming in for the last 20 mins not 4 .
You might think I am hard on Rochford but you have to face facts.
WJ I think the top 3 performing player poll is a good idea.
In relation to the match what enterment in the conditions. I thought all our lads put in a full shift. Thank you and well done to all. However 2 of our best players were nullified! O’Shea and Keegan. I think Vaughan should take Donaghy and free up OShea to do what he does best in the midfield/halforward area.
@WJ it’s not exactly pr either as we are now asked to nominate three players who performed equally outstandingly which may not be accurate as for example yesterday. Going on your current pole format it’s 1Andy 2Doherty and 3Higgins which is a fair reflection. Anyway I’m being devious here as we have bigger fish to fry such as how to make sure Donaghy is not Star of the week, next week
Malachy clerkins piece is spot on
Right then, Philor – who would you have put on Donaghy? And what, I wonder, would be your opinion if Rochford had put whoever you think should have been on him and we ended up conceding far more? It’s so easy being the one flinging rocks in from the outside.
The Aidan tactic was questionable, granted, but I’m not sure if any other option would have worked much better. We didn’t lose yesterday and the sideline got plenty right. Included in that, by the way, was bringing Durcan in for Boyle. He looked horsed when taken off and struggled with O’Brien’s pace. Paddy quietened O’Brien and got the equaliser so that switch definitely worked.
I know it’s not exactly PR, OnTheDitch, but just an attempt to widen the recognition of players in the game. I’m not sure how it’ll work out in practice but I guess there’s only one way to find out.
glad to see the distinction between aerial and ground marking of Donaghy. There is no point blaming O’Shea for possession he got, as you cannot mark any good full forward if the approach player has time to pick out his run for low delivery – it was the same for Moran – and yesterday, we did not challenge the approach play enough. He got everything in the bread basket while in contrast, outfield Dublin pressure ensures that the ball is only in his general area and people can crowd him or block his adjustment. The aerial debate is simple: you either block the delivery or him with fair or foul tactics, or he has to have a 6ft 5 inch jumper marking him to decisively rule out that threat and that limits the options – without it he would have scored the goals himself – do we not remember!
Reading the indo and the times this morning I thought the criticism of Steven Rochford was way over the top. Both managers got calls right and wrong and there is an element of fortune of how things can work out given the conditions pattern of play, form etc. I agree Willie Joe that Eamonn Sweeney’s piece in the Indo was a disgrace. Perhaps as a Roscommon native he still sore after we annhiliated his native county. Tactics and match-ups are important but a starting point is Heart, fight and an inner belief that we can do it. Roch must take his share of credit for that. This Mayo team showed all these qualities and I am so proud of them. We will finish the job the next day.
That photo is hilarious
Would love to know what’s being said!
Yes yes and yes of course for top three.
I think allot of folks here are missing the gains we got with AOS on Donaghy. His role was to negate the high ball in and boy oh boy did he achieve that. So much so the Kerry lads completely stopped sending it in. I’m astounded that we’re not all shouting this from the rooftops. Round 1 for Rochford, AOS and co!!
So with that win and option taken from Kerry, it forced Donaghy to move to the wings to get the on ball.
AOS seemed to deliberate to hold back and defend space, in particular, protect the ‘D’. I can only assume this was deliberate and tactical. This is where I think folks are critical. As Donaghy got on the ball and orchestrate attacks. Maybe the intention was for the sweeper to contest the low ball in those areas and AOS was responsible to hold back and protect ‘D’ for high ball attack? I definitely got sense
in the second half that Higgens made more effort to get involved there and provide cover.
The other observation I made yesterday – ball seem to go through the middle of the park quicker? I often think that when AOS gets on the ball because he being fouled it kinda slows things down. Our ball definitely got intothe lads up front quick and with pinpoint accuracy. Boy oh boy did the lads make hay (even without the sunshine).
For me and I know lots will shake their head but AOS change inside worked. It just needs tweaking. You know what folks .. that was his first time in full-back and he was up against craftiest of them all. He was massive in that area and the next day he will be even better. If I was to make a change, I like to see him try and
draw Donaghy out. Maybe even get involved in a few attacks. To do this we need cover in case play breaks down.
Game on game we’re getting better. Keep the faith all and look after your voice for the next day 🙂
While most pundits, jornos and Mayo fans think it was a mistake playing Aido at fb, what is the alternative?
Caff – Would get destroyed in the air
Vaughan- Probably could compete but Donaghy would come out on top on the 50:50 balls resulting in at least 1 if not numerous goal opportunities.
Seamie – Much the same result as yesterday but Seamie cant last a full game so a substitution and a total rejig of the team setup would be required, dangerous.
Barry – Simply not match fit, untested this year and Donaghy would still win with ball in hand, same result as yesterday at best.
Harrison – Had his hands full with Geaney and probably came off second best in that tussle. Who picks up Geaney if Harry moves over?
Leeroy – No, Needed elsewhere.
Clarke at fb and Hennelly back in – OK joking there.
Parsons – The only player capable of competing with Donaghy in the air and on the ground in open play but he simply cant be moved from mf, Our only midfielder with pace.
Its all fine and well saying it didn’t work but whats the alternative? What was the objective in putting Aido at fb, stopping the hi ball that has destroyed us so often in the past, stopping what everyone was so worried about for the past two weeks. In this regard it was a success, Kerry didn’t even try to play long because Aido was in there. Also this notion that Donaghy contributed 2-4 or 2-6 in assists is bullshite, Mayo contributed the assists for their goals with some very sloppy handling errors. Too much credit given to Donaghy as a means to beat the mayo management with. I would give some credit to the Mayo management in actually trying to tackle the Donaghy issue where so many mayo managers in the past failed to recognise.
Also whats being glossed over is the fact that mayo had ample opportunities to win this game, yet again numerous scoring chances were squandered which would have finished Kerry off, More composure in front of goal and we would have been looking forward to the final and not another replay.
For me the highlight of today is the clip showing the reaction of Bernard Flynn to Durkins equaliser, it’s a unadulterated look of disgust. The creature truly is a hemorrhoid on the arsehole of society. You’d need two of the fool to make a half wit.
Yes Donaghy made many of the scores but that’s what he does in every game and who else should have marked him?! O Shea put on him was damage limitation and it worked in that it discouraged high ball in where we would have haemorrhaged goals if he was marked by Vaughn. O’Sheas two hand block in 43 minute was crucial and remember his interception at the back in the first Roscommon game that kept us in the championship. Everyone loves having a go at O Shea and Rochford remember that. Unfortunately everybody repeats what the last man says rather than trying to understand why a Manager makes the decisions that he does
Saw that clip Liam..Flynns face was comical but he pulled it together quickly..poor Martin Carney looked like he was going to pass out at final whistle..Dont know bout the rest of ye but I am drained..How these Mayo lads do it Ill never know but am so grateful they do..Never thought we’d be at this point back in June..They are incredible..
Agree re top 3 as Jason Doherty deserves recognition for his awesome performance too. Though earlier is the year may have been a struggle to pick 3 with some of our performances. Philor stating above how fb is a specialised role. Do you mean caff??? How would he have done yesterday? He’s the only fb we have so playing anyone else there was going to be a gamble. Just like donal or Seamus or parsons or Barry would also be a gamble. Whoever is there next week will be a gamble even if it is our specialist fb. Indo sank to a new low today and should be called out on it by our county board. It’s not the criticism, it’s the language used which was totally out of order and unacceptable. Should not be let go. If posted here would have been deleted fairly lively.
I wasn’t gone on the AOS tactic in the first half but I thought he really grew into it in the 2nd half and played well. I have to say Im a big fan of Rochford thinking outside the box. He absolutely does not care what anybody thinks of his decisions which is a great way to be, he is prepared to put his head on the block. The nature of the calls he is making means some will come off some wont, remember Dillon v Tyrone last year.
Id be tempted to swap the two O’Sheas the next day but would have no problem if AOS was marking KD again. I thought Boyle looked absolutely shattered yesterday just before he was taken off but might be wrong there.
It’s not the criticism, it’s the language used which was totally out of order and unacceptable. Should not be let go. If posted here would have been deleted fairly lively.
Gough the ref for the replay. Think he’s a good ref myself.
We have lots of players capable of playing full back but marking Donaghy at FF is a totally different challenge to what any fullbacks typically does. He is a great footballer both in the air, on the ground and in general play. His strength at holding up the balll to allow others make incisive runs is excellent. He can kick an inch perfect pass from 40+ meters. And I believe he is a full time professional footballer in all but name this year. So what do we do with him on Saturday?
1. Put Donie on him for a start. At least he would mark him a lot tighter and not allow him so much time and space to play the ball. He might give him a bit more “grief”.
2. Stand slightly off him so he can’t push you out of the way when the high ball comes in and then clatter into him in the air trying to break the ball as far out as possible. Clarke could help here also by jumping in the knees up position! Goalies are rarely blown up for robust aerial challenges around the square.
3. If he wins high ball bottle him up using the sweeper (Higgins) AND watch Gainey and O Donoghue for quick flicks.
He might still do well but Aidan would strengthen us around the middle and cause them huge problems as well.
Apart from that I can’t think of anything else other than what a Ricey or a Philly McMahon might do to him to discourage him a little.
Regina and Liam any links to the footage of Flynn or where did ye see it?
If only that move had been made the first day in 2014 when Donaghy came on we’d have been all ireland champions. Anyway, if my aunt had balls etc. On we go.
Fair play Willie Joe re O Boyle I did not realise he was shagged ,but I was basing it on previous days he took him off. I would have left Vaughan on Donaghy with a sweeper.
I would imagine that what ever extra that might be conceded I would imagine Aidan would offset this at the other end and Donaghy would not be getting the same supply of ball and probably may have to come out to counter Aidan if he was at CF
Rochford needs to bring in subs earlier.
I would like to know if you think Aidan should start the next day at fb
The look on Flynn’s face is absolutely priceless. Utter disgust. I don’t know if he is a betting man, but he has the look of someone who just lost his b*ll*x.
The other option, of course, with Donaghy is to do what Joe McMahon did to him in the 2008 final, which was to keep two hands on his shirt for the whole seventy minutes. There was a Kerryman sitting beside me in the Upper Cusack that day and I thought he’d have a coronary. Strangely, I thought that kind of marking was deemed foul play but not that day …
I’d trust Rochford on that one, Philor, and I’m glad it’s his decision. Although I too would like to see Aidan further up the field – though it’s certainly true that our forward play was quicker and more effective with Aidan out of there – I’m struggling to see what better options we have for Donaghy. On balance, I think I’d go again with Aidan there.
It appears Rochford had this ploy in mind for Aiden o Shea as it was tried for a while against kildare in qualifiers last year.Lets be honest it worked in cutting out aerial treat of Donaghy but the marking was pretty poor on a number of occasions.we may have to roll with this decision again on Saturday but with a little tweaking it may work.Look on the bright side Aiden covered very little ground the last day and should be fresher than most.[may have been carrying a niggle, we don,t know] and Keegan is to good a player to be shackled again.
That footage of Flynn is here. I’m not sure it’s in any way conclusive as to what he might have been thinking, to be fair.
The problem is that Kerry quickly adjusted their sails re feed ball to Donaghy. We didn’t and we are carrying untried subs into these matches giving us less options. That discussion may be for another day, but suffice to say that’s how the dubs bury their opponents, they have a bench to do it. The nature of our games are cliffhangers, but, boy have we guys that do not want to fall off. Reading posts Parsons looks best option, start Durcan, rest SOS and Keegan to midfield. Once Donaghy in possession he needs terrier like attention, he had way too much time on ball and was not forced into quick decision making. We have a fixable problem, Kerry have not, they are pretty much stuck with a very average full back line. Not a lot they can do about it but we need to go hell for leather at them.
I see there’s a meath man reffing it!!!! David gough
Mayomad – Great analysis there of the Donaghy Delima…. Robbing Peter to pay Paul…. I noticed yesterday at the match and on many occasions before… When the ball is played into Donaghy, Either chest high on one bounce perfect.. The supporting Kerry forwards open up a channel like the red sea for the Kicker (particularly David Moran) to play the ball into the corridor now empty,… Donaghy looking out the field ball in hand has option that he can clearly see (because of the open corridor in front of him) support player’s running hard into that empty space,.. Donaghy has the almost effortless hand pass abilities to pick a player running at pace (and that player also has support on his shoulder)…. There is no doubt but that these moves are preplanned and practiced… Video analysis is needed to identify when the corridor of space is opening up for Donaghy…. Yesterday in the warm up I noticed Donaghy controlling TWO balls soloing one and hand passing the other at the same time…. Also in the warm up I noticed Barry Moran and AOS shouldering each other vigorous stuff.. Moran is as physically impressive as AOS, I know he hasn’t much football played this year, but he could physically challenge Donaghy on the edge of the square.. There he doesn’t need to do much footballing done, just be a stopper… If and when Donaghy was coming out the field for one of these preplanned perfect balls to him we need a different solution, (seeing as AOS struggled to match Donaghy as he ran out the field.. Moran would struggle just as much, Mayo need to identify the channels opening up for Donaghy runs and get a body in there… Then if Donaghy gets the ball, the option of him laying it off is made more difficult and it becomes something of a serious risk for Kerry, because of the running game of Mayo any interception of Kerry possession in this area is likely to be very costly for Kerry…) with Kerry support player’s already running in the wrong direction) In the event of Donaghy turning and running forward from way out the field, he is much less effective… At least that’s my conclusion of the Donaghy Delima from viewing in live and wet from the lower Cusack… PS… 16th Mayo in the Man Woman and Child, take another bow, fantastic support again yesterday… Any slight lull and there were Mayo cheer leaders to reignite the passion and noise…Fair Play to the Sinead, and Anne-Marie and to Willie Joe and the Mayo Gaa blog for motivating us to ever greater efforts for the Green and Red cause. Oh and Happy Birthday to Sean Rice, some of the hoarsed voices on the Byrne Babes Bus from Castlebar with whom I was lucky enough to travel with yesterday sang happy birthday yesterday as we drove westwards.
@diehard – That’s real good coaching advice and it’s hard not to agree with you. Though I really do think AOS was coached/instructed to stand back and protect ‘D’. Not to get pulled out of position (which happened a few times I may add). We got to remember the Kerry lads gave up sending the high ball in. That was massive for us and it made them needing to run at us which played right into our hands. Higgins & Harrison were fantastic and look how well they tackled to keep out Donoghue and Geaney out.
The next day and whatever changes are made we must not concede in giving Kerry the high ball option. If we do that then we will win or possibly in for extra time lol.
Everyone won yesterday, including the referee. Based on the conditions yesterday the referee did well. Some said he should have side lined a Kerry player, he could have done the same to a Mayo player. The only player I felt sorry for yesterday was Aiden O Shea. No more than the way Rochford placed Jason Gibbons against Dublin it was a carbon copy of the same. Sadly Gibbons got shafted after it. We could have done with him big time yesterday. Aiden was a fall guy for management listening to that gob shite Ger Brady. Maybe if Management listened to Cora Staunton, and she was 100% correct. Aiden is good around the middle of the field. He is neither a full back or full forward. It looks like Ger Caff should be brought back for the next day. Put Aiden in midfield instead of Seamus. Keep Durcan and Nally as subs. We put on 3 subs yesterday , Drake was pushed around like a child. Coen was not at the races and caused a soft Kerry score. Bringing on Loftus with 3 minutes was an insult to the player. When you see Evan Regan and Fergal Boland not on the panel of 26, and you see Alan Dillon and Barry Moran ( who did not kick a ball all year) named its just show how the tail is wagging the dog. I said before the match that Kerry would win. They didn’t and people are saying that Bryan Sheehan could have scored the last free. He was about 50 mtrs out, Cillian sent one wide from about 21 mtrs out. Anyways the next day should be a cracker, and I still believe Kerry will win (the bastards).
Rochford has enough on his hands all week with out his own on his back.
Don’t think he had much choice, doine is needed out field, such a man to get up and down croker.
I think we will learn a lot from yesterday.
Kerry will have to make a lot of change’s, they made 3 before halftime and not a word about Fitz’s tactic’s.
We’ll have to go again Saturday and Kerry are just waiting for O’Shea to be moved up the field so they can flitter him.
They had a plan for him yesterday if he was up the field,Crowley wanted a piece of him going off at halftime.
Let’s get behind them like yesterday it was unreal support.
Gough is very strict on defender’s, just watch Connaught final.
Boyler was running on fumes just before going off, you would not see that on the TV coverage though. Mayo to win the replay if we play our cards properly. Aos is being killed today, yet his man scored 1 point. The others that scored what he set up were being marked by aos colleagues. My bet is donaghy is very containable by a physical player like vaughsn with a sweeper near the action to clean it up, this woukd mean that he wouldnt be setting much scores up since hes marked tighter thsn aos marked him. Loftus and nally should get 20 minutes each minimum and Kirby stuck near the Kerry goalmouth at some stage as a target and give us another option.
Mayo have room for vast improvement and are capable of it and to be totally neutral in this last sentence, they are at this moment a better football team than Kerry if they’re set up properly and play to the strengths involved.
I think this media focus on Donaghy’s ‘victory’ yesterday (by the end of the week, he’ll have SCORED 2-4), suits us. What we don’t want, and what i half expected is a barrage on how bad Kerry were, or how good Andy Moran was.
We should have won it, had control, got terribly sloppy, and we have got to finish the job next day. And we’ll do that by dominating around the middle and putting pressure, constant pressure on Kerry’s defence. Their full forward line need to be starved; that’s how we render them scoreless or nearly scoreless.
There is something fundamental to humanity’s makeup that we insist on seeing things as black and white when the reality is shades of grey. A player is great or useless, a manager smart or out of his depth, etc.
Lets take a proper look at the managerial calls yesterday.
1. Full court press – Kerry employed it more successfully than Mayo and partly as a consequence won the kickout battle. Point for Fitzmaurice
2. Kerry flooded the middle of the field to block the Mayo runners. Mayo mixed running with kick passing into the full forward line and caused havoc. We seem to have finally gotten the balance between running and kick passing right. Point for Rochford.
3. Substitutions – more timely and to better effect by Kerry. Point to Fitzmaurice
4. Matchups – We won some and lost some. Think it really boils down to AOS v KD, and here too I think it’s nuanced. I recall two high balls into Donaghy in the entire game – one of which was played the one time Aidan was caught out of position, and the second was when Donaghy appeared to be in space when the kick was made, but Aidan closed the gap while the ball was in the air and both broke and won the ball. i.e. the instruction to Kerry players was clearly to lorry high balls in only if AOS was not around. Donaghy was also restrained from rotating to midfield to support kickouts etc. However, we also did not have Aidan up the field either. Instead we had Donie, who really helped our running game.
I honestly don’t believe we have anyone who can both win the aerial battle with Donaghy and man mark effectively. Note, not compete in the air but WIN the aerial battle. We cannot afford to two team him, as Kerry have too many other options up front & the footballing smarts to use them. So, to make a long story short, would we have won if Donie marked Donaghy and we had Aidan at 11?
Maybe, but I’m not sure…
So on balance, Fitzmaurice shaded the sideline calls, but its not a case of genius v donkey.
Finally, I’d like to point out that Rochford similarly shaded the calls for the drawn AIF, but Gavin did on the replay. So hopefully Rochford can turn the tables for the next day…
Thanks for that Willie Joe
Just going through the comments and not one acknowledgement of the balls of P Durkin and that score, especially after making a the previous balls of the previous shot a few minutes earlier, mgt clearly when picking the team are so rigid in making changes why DOC left on for so long when Durkin should have come on at half time ,AOS being 10 yards off(it’s not rocket science to tackle him KD with a physical man i.e. DV) and have someone win braking ball,would Fitmaurice have put more D Moran on Barry Moran if he went ff? Someone in mgt is obsessed with the defensive aspect of the game- a positive mindset next week and the game is for the taking
A note to everyone… Eamon Fitzmorris had the luxury of the prefect 3 weeks preparation where he got to see first hand Mayo playing twice…. Yesterday Keegan was Out Keegean’d… Keegan will learn, it will also be another 6 days since Keegan was in hospital, Maybe Lee wasn’t quite back to his best, I give credit to Paul Murphy, but if there is a ever a good time to be marking Lee Keegan, surly it’s 15″ day’s after him coming out of Hospital (you don’t be a few day’s in Hospital in Ireland any more unless there is something wrong)… In some of the post match national analysis I think the role of Paul Murphy has not been appreciated, I would say the same thing about Jason Doherty…. Some of the poster’s here wanted both Andy (Andy has been now cleaned Griffin in Tralee 10 points between what he scored and frees he won) and Enright in Croker in the same year and Jason not to start…. Did he win every ball played into him on a day that the ball was like a bar of soap?.. I think he did or very close to it. Mind-boggling, next Saturday we will win some of the subplots and no doubt lose some of them as well, just so long as on the score board we are one point ahead when the final whistle is blown…. But I would like both Durcan and Shane Nally to start… I won’t say who I think should be dropped, I would be metaphorically lynched…
Well said Mayomad on man for man analysis of our potential strategies for Donaghy – it has to be AOS if BM is not ready. SOS gets stuck in a crowded midfield and we should know by now what the game scene is like at the end of tight matches with nobody getting inside, so we need to have 40-metre shooters coming on which is not Coen, Drake or Loftus, but is Nally for one
The only Mayo man ever to mark Donaghy out of a game was David Brady. Only problem was we were 10 points down by the time he switched into him in 06! Nevertheless, Brady’s approach is worth studying. He basically bullied him, using every dirty trick in the book. Standing on his toes, backing into him etc. Probably got sympathetic calls from the ref in not awarding a penalty, mind you. But Donaghy did nothing the rest of the game. In my view Lee is best option with sweeper in front. Ok you lose Lee’s forward play, but we’ve done pretty well without it the last 2 games. Face it, Donaghy can destroy you. You have to give up something to stop him. Whoever plays him, the key is not to be nice! But you have to be sneaky to get away with it. Make it look like an accident!
Boyler got taken off because stephen O’Brien was playing puck. I cannot understand how people missed this!!!
Firstly, Clifford cannot play senior inter county in the same year as minor inter county.
Secondly, the one time AOS was not in beside Donaghy to compete, Kerry landed a long ball in on top of Donaghy. It broke, rather luckily, for Kerry and a goal resulted. But the point is, if AOS was NOT there from the start of the game and throughout the game Kerry would have lamped balls in all day. Vaughan is not an option in there as he just could not get up like AOS can. By putting AOS in there is forced Kerry to adjust, and Donaghy had to come out for ball. That was Mayos primary objective achieved. Nullify the aerial threat.
Thirdly, we gifted Kerry both their goals. Seamie lost the ball centrally when he should have moved it on. That led to their first goal. Zippy misplaced a pass to AOS who was wide and unmarked under the Cusack stand. AOS was then out of position when the long sideline ball was pumped in.
One more thing, Kerry are not going to fix that defense in 6 days. It’s barely better than Galways and has been opened up by Cork, Galway and now us.
As for the media? Who gives a flying f##k about them. DONT READ IT OR LISTEN TO IT.
Liamontherunsince 51…….Up above, you said that Eamonn Sweeney is from Roscommon.
Are you sure, because I thought he`s from Sligo ?
Well said pebbles.. I would add to that, Paul Murphy started to cause havoc towards the end when Lee Keegan was taken off him. Can you image if Lee wasn’t marshalling him all evening where would we be. Rochford got more right than wrong and the only asses out there are some of the so called sports pundits and media. As they say, “what would you expect from an ass but a kick”.. so don’t read it if don’t want a kick.
Well said, Pebblesmeller.
If AOS was full forward and ball was lumped into him/on top of the Kerry defence I wonder how it work out? It would if imagine create breaking ball in there. I’m not comparing Aidan to Donaghy. The latter is a much more natural inside forward but I wouldn’t think Kerry would like it, Aido hanging about their goalmouth? This is the thing, none of us have a clue where the lad will end up on Saturday and neither does the Kerry management.
Murphy won the battle against Keegan unfortunately. Let’s hope that Lee stamps his authority on proceedings next weekend.
I’d look at at starting the defence as it liked out but with Paddy included. We need bodies back to snuff out that Kerry attack and hit fast on the break.
Maybe have Diarmuid come off the bench.
Have to go with Mayomad on Don and AOS.People give the impression that they think it was decided as they ran onto the field . Donaghy has been under the glass ever since he’s shown a bit of form and of course the question went around the table. I had expected Aidan to be mostly in cf/ff and assumed they would come up with other plans for D. I have to say considering all, esp the psychological presence of the big man,no shit, was a good call and congrats to him for taking it on.
I recall one other time when a major mayo player likewise answered such a call for different reasons and it wasn’t David Brady but Anthony Egan….MF => CB =>FB and made a good job of the lot … In bad times!!
I can’t see any change in that regards for Sat. So well done all back there. You maybe sure it won’t be any easier next time.
It’s a bit churlishish to point to particular unforced errors out the field and the bother they always create for a team….we made them and will again but it’s what they ll be kicking themselves for among all the other things that they wouldn’t be too proud of and are dying to get out again to right the next day.
For me this was one of the best displays from aMayo team in a long while and with a bit more cut throat ruthlessness….’take the goals and the points will come!!’ we’ll give ourselves a bit more room at the end of the game on Saturday! How dare we ask for more? It’s because they will ask for more.
And it ll be nice for some of those favourite scribes to be taken out of their miserable haunts!
I don’t think Keegan was himself at all. And how could he be expected to be after hospitalisation and the debilitating effects of whatever drugs he was prescribed. It takes a while for their effects to wear off. He’ll be different next time.
Well said Pebblesmeller. Thank you Leantimes. I do feel vocal support has improved no end since Sep last year. I don’t feel the need for anything other than Mayo Mayo anymore, even against the dubs. We, as supporters are a different animal now, even though I thought I was nearly a dying animal yesterday. Recharged and ready for more now though.
I think Mayo supporters have evolved with the team. To be honest, this team have given me confidence in myself. I never knew I had such drive in me or the capability to go on radio, stand up in front of hundreds of people at the GAA Hour(and make a fool of myself for a cause I really believed in) or even write a post for this blog. I know because of this team that if there is something I think I can’t do that I can IF I really believe in what I want to do. These lads believe with conviction that they are good enough.
I knew after the all Ireland that my chant was not needed for the replay. Mayo fans had already stood up for the Mayo men and still are. We are like warriors in the stands, all over Twitter, Facebook, the blog, forums etc. standing up for the Mayo men. Cusack stand season ticket holders, Ye are brilliant at getting everything going at matches. I take my chanting cue from Ye. I’m proud of our team and I’m proud of us.
Now I better go to bed and stop the fire in my belly. I’ll never sleep. My analysis is some of us here are maybe too passionate 😉
Eamonn Sweeney is a Sligo man from the village of Gurteen. He totally contradicted himself with that latest silly article, in December he wrote it was the players fault now the manager/management fault.
Jeez, why we get annoyed about what pundits write about our team is a waste of time! There’s one way to end that and its by winning!
I see Kerry are now pushing the “dark arts” narrative about Mayo…in the build up to Saturday.
Our own TV and podcast pundits should be doing the same about James O’Donuhue, Darren O’Sullivan, BJ Keane et al.
It may not matter a damn of course, but sure we might feel better about it and if we get a dodgy free awarded by Gough in the dying seconds, then sure maybe it did matter 🙂
Watched the game back tonight. Many here have already said everything there is to say. But watching it back I have a few comments/observations.
Aidan on Donaghy was a a farly gutsy call by Rochford. But we should have been more dynamic, with Aidan roaming periodically into the FF line and dragging Donaghy with him (or not). This requires tremendous mental discipline so as not to leave the FB line exposed if he drifts up. Having said that, I thought Aido did a good thankless job.
Diarmaid was way off the pace, again taking too long on the ball. But a fierce tackler. So is there any better option.
DOC was outstanding and looks to have really hit the gym big time over the past few weeks.
Midfield- We broke even in the first half but Kerry cleaned our clock in the second half. Both Seamus and Tom were MIA for the first 15 mins of the second half. A crucial time. Also, both of them coughed up ball in the middle numerous times leading to turnovers and Kerry scores. Tom was put through twice on goal but seemed laethargic and heavy legged, on both occasions he scored a point but the goals were on (KMAC and Cillian open to hios left)
Then in the 74 min, right after Paddy had kicked the equalizer, we had the big MO, game tied, Kelly kicks out, Coen punches down, Tom collects, line moving toward Kerry goal for the winner,Tom inexplicably hand passes to Kerry man! Kerry break the line, Moran gets it, Donnie fouls him, Sheehan kicks short, game over!
I know its hard to complain but that was the winning of it right there…no way would Kerry have allowed us a free score. They would have fouled and Cillian would have kicked the winner from 35 yards.
Anyway, point is, if we had been a little bit more composed we could have won it…we will have to be the next day.
Parsons didn’t pass that last ball to a Kerry man. He passed it to Lotus who waited for the ball to come to him instead of going to the ball, which allowed the Kerry man to come in from behind and intercept. That’s inexperience on Loftus part, hopefully a lesson learned.
It was a great performance by the players last Sunday.
The decision to start and leave Aidan O’Se at full back cost us the game (in my opinion). I didn’t agree with decision to start him there in the first place. When it was obvious that Donaghy was leading Aidan a merry dance, we should’ve made a change. Aidan looked lost and disinterested for large periods of the game. He’s not a full back. We would’ve won the game by putting Donnie full back and moving Aidan into the forwards.
If we make a couple of minor tactical changes and play to our potential, we will win the replay. This is a great team of players we have.
Also, could Mayo fans please not boo opposition. It’s bad sportsmanship and bad example for kids at the match. It’s also giving us and our county a bad name. There are a growing minority of fans who think it’s normal behavior to boo and roar abuse towards opposition players / mgt / supporters (regardless of who we’re playing).
Maigh Eo Abu
How does mcmahon and cooper cope with the aerial threat from target men?
This is crazy talk the way ye are all warming to AOS at full back. Heres another thing on a dry day donaghy will beat him in the air as well as give him the run about . What a waste . Mayo are too carried away now with themselves as a.collective (im guilty too) , we just cant help ourselves for some reason.